> > This week on the Wheelhouse.

> > In community.

> > Higher education faces a depriving enrollment school closures and the question even need a degree.

> > for > > Connecticut Public on Frankie Graziano.

This is the Wheelhouse.

The show that connects politics to the people.

We've got your weekly dose of politics in Connecticut and beyond right here.

Officials from schools of higher at all across America say they need help to stay open in the final days of the 2025 legislative session in Connecticut.

You'll be hearing about how local colleges and universities.

don't think they're getting a fair shake in the new two-year budget.

With Steve enrollment declines.

Shifting thoughts about the value of a college education colleges and universities.

We're struggling to stay open.

What does this to mold in higher education mean for the economy?

And we still attract the best and brightest international students.

Do we have the skilled labor needed to fill jobs this hour.

The future of higher Ed.

And we'd like to hear from you today if you're attending or working at a local college or university hit us up, you got to join the to date 720-9677, 8, 8, 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, to tell us how things are going for colleges and universities in Connecticut.

I'm joined by a former communications major at Emerson College.

The Susan Raff WFSB News Channel.

Three's Chief political reporter.

Good Morning, Susan.

You like that, Rob, enjoying a King wrote that into the script.

> > I thank you very much.

Good morning.

It's nice to see both of you.

Good morning.

Nice to see you.

And Jacqueline rape, Thomas Investigative reporter for Hearst Connecticut Media.

You know what Jackie did she broke the news last October that the leader of Connecticut's largest public college system had been spending state money in ways that he shouldn't have can't wait to tap and or reporting on that.

Jacki, thank you for joining the show.

Thanks for having me.

Susan, you get the first question.

Colleges and universities are lamenting.

I think that's a strong word.

Lamenting Wilmot Governor Ned Lamont's budget proposal, the higher education portion of the governors budget calls for cuts to the University of Connecticut and Connecticut State colleges and universities.

How big of a cutter we talk.

Let's back up a little bit.

Keep in mind, UConn usually gets whatever it was.

That's right.

Uconn gets quite a bit of money and they have the ability to get a lot of out of state students, which, you know, central and the community colleges do not.

This is a tough year to because of the fact that Connecticut has a surplus.

And so a lot of and UK shun agencies are all looking for money, but there are bigger picture issues and that is, you know, what could be coming from the federal government.

This is a tough time to be in education.

I think we do want to attract the best and the bride a sentence.

Jacqueline, we'll tell you it doesn't help when your chancellor gets busted for, you know, being to loose with taxpayer dollar and enjoying himself too much.

So that has that.

But there's I go to this and that is that apparently they didn't spend all their arpa money, right?

So that's out there, too.

I'm not sure they're going to get what they want.

The cuts I think are going to happen in your 2.

This is a budget that spans 2 years.

Obviously the biennium budget will they continue during the second year?

Do you know what the timeframe is in terms of the cuts and how it actually looks like?

I don't.

But you know, that's common with a two-year budget, right?

So some things are funded in year one not in your 2 like special education, I understand is like that.

They want to the governor's budget calls for some funding in the first year or the second year.

Not in the first year.

So I'm not sure exactly.

In everything now is very fluid.

keep in mind, we only have a few more weeks to do less than a month and things like higher.

Ed Education, special education.

Those are all things that are being negotiated.

There are many different plans out there.

Something will happen.

What it is.

We're just not sure who OK, let's go back into the ARPA money, though, because I think we can go there.

Nbc, Connecticut reported Mike Sabino recently pointed out that UConn and CSU used up there combined 270 million dollars.

And one time American Rescue Plan Act funding that they need more money from the state to make up for the lost in federal funding.

So as the governor address that ask, what other lawmakers saying?

I want to know because it seems like yeah, they they might.

Some are saying they didn't spend the arpa money.

Some are saying they did just kind of help us.

And you know, it's interesting with arpa money because if you take like public health, for example, they had some are from dollars that they didn't spend right.

And so apparently it's fair game.

If you don't spend that money, the feds can take it back so that the bottom line is with arpa money.

If you get it, you need to spend it.

I'm not exactly sure how much arpa money the higher Ed has and what they have been spent.

But I am told that they do have it right?

That's right.

so Arpa would take excuse me.

The feds would take back the ARPA money that's unspent.

That's right.

Right.

I think the thing about this is money is very fungible in higher Ed.

So whether its arpa money, whether it's reserve money, there is a large reserve in in the schools.

I think the difference that the conversation that they're having now at the Capitol is are we able to tap that reserves are considered either restricted or unrestricted and whether that arpa money and people were sort of saving that a way to provide a sort of a softer exit ramp when this federal arpa money went away.

I think as part of the conversation and whether or not the money has already been committed, that is in the reserve fund and whether it's restricted for things like capital projects that they've committed to.

They have been premium payments on that they have to make and they don't have a choice about.

> > Wright is Jacqueline will tell you, you know, and the last thing university or but I think all of us want has to > > raise tuition.

But UConn is always in a better situation because they have an enormous, attract ability with their athletics.

And people come from out of state.

I'm not sure central or the community colleges where people are really struggling to get by to increase the education can afford to pay more and has a huge win.

State money is down.

They can increase outdated moment to cover that gap and and so that's sort of this calls into the question of how much of a state university is it when you're in really more out of state students?

There's an argument to be made that some of those students are retained in stay in state after their graduation.

But as it becomes harder and harder for people to go to UConn and get accepted to come.

That's attention point as well.

> > You said that nobody wants to raise tuition.

Well, as we're going to find out later in the show from John Marcus of the Hechinger Report and Brian Rosenberg from Harvard University.

Everybody's going to have to raise tuition at some point if they If people can afford college and continue to go but stay tuned for that.

It's gonna be a very important conversation.

8, 8, 8, 720-9677.

We're hoping that you're sharing your personal anecdotes with this experience.

what we're hearing nationally lot is that people might have to tap into an endowment or something like that is what we're talking about on the on the local system.

These are public colleges and universities.

So there's not necessarily like and I can and down that we're talking about maybe like some kind of statement serve system.

> > There are reserves this.

The amounts are reported every year again about that restricted and unrestricted.

How much is truly able to be tapped into that?

separate from that UConn does have an endowment, but it's not good.

Fiscal practice to start tapping into that to cover your operating expenses and there's their endowment.

Last time I looked at their endowment levels, they're not huge to, you know, you're talking about like Trinity College or yells and down down at levels Wesley in or any kind of private school like that.

the state universities don't traditionally have they get down months.

> > Yes, as you how much I know about endowment and higher education, by the way that I framed that question Jackie, there's this financial crisis and then there's crisis.

man has been in.

Susan alluded to this earlier, Cs EU's current chancellor is Terrence Chang.

He's technically on the outs.

Hearst Connecticut, Jackie Rape, Thomas, right next to the reporting that through a separation agreement, Terrence Chang stepping down as the head of Connecticut's largest public university college system.

Cheney reportedly acknowledged state state reports of troubling expenses funded by taxpayer and student tuition dollars story.

Jacki broke earlier this year.

We don't have much to see SCU does to support schools going through the type of struggles were talking about.

Today.

We're talking about closures and things like that.

Mergers and what role change would having that normally, if things were going well.

> > So central office at the CSU system is sort of the more sort of big-picture policy goals and implementation and sets that helps guide the Board of Regents to determine tuition increases and and set budgets that go to every single of the schools in the system that system is able to shut down campuses and reconsider them.

That I would argue is the reason why Chang's one of Chang's predecessors, Gregory Gray, when he tried to start shutting down campuses in Meriden and was considering other places.

I think Torrington was another one satellite campus that was under consideration.

That was really I, Yeah, that was really his downfall because now you're talking about legislators, districts and and that really rankled a lot of people.

And I'm not sure for how much of a savings that would have actually achieved.

> > Shout out to to kind.

I went there for a couple of years, it is no longer.

> > Well, there's such struggling.

If you remember Marco Jake in high, go back to those days when they wanted that whole consolidation plan with the community colleges simply for the fact that enrollment is down.

And but they didn't want to lose their own identity.

So they tried to come up with one central name and system, but not close.

Any of the community.

College campuses, which is important because people who live in those communities want to be able to access them.

> > And that's what we're kind of talking about on today's show.

We're talking about closures happening.

Nationwide will get into a little more in the second segment about demographic clips unless people actually being around to go to college, there's less.

Eighteen-year-old.

We'll talk about that a little later.

But that's essentially what Connecticut has done to kind of avoid college closures.

We have seen some, though we're talking about pie or college being one that is shut down and also Stone Academy.

There's a little bit of controversy around Stone Academy.

But the point is they had no money.

So there's those and there's also rumors and we can dig into that a little later.

But change been credited by the governor for the work done to consolidate the state's community college system.

Is basically what we're getting at.

He also says college applications and graduations are up under Chiang chains.

Contract isn't being terminated.

So help us here.

He'll get paid the money owed to him until his contract ends.

And how are lawmakers taking that?

Yes, > > the settlement agreement so is exercising a clause in his contract where it's a termination clause.

4 0.1 is the termination clause.

So he they are terminating him.

They are okay.

They are.

They're just they're caught his.

They're living out his contract, which is required under his contract to get a 12 month notice period.

And so they're paying him 443,000 dollars over the next year.

play and advise enrolled.

There's a lot of question around how much advising will will take place around someone who I think many legislators have expressed no confidence in in him as well as some of the leadership of the Board of Regents have expressed no confidence in him.

So there's debate around how act of of a role that will, in fact be.

Your question about the kids getting credit for consolidating the And that has been a slow train since I covered higher and like, you know, 7 or 8 years ago of in in the way in the works.

You know, that was first proposed by Governor Malloy during his first year in office and, you know, it finally got across the finish line of of getting accreditation.

I think it was last year and it's still causing ripple effects for just some administrative changes that have huge implications and whether places will have a dean on their college campus in and really having people who know the institution firsthand.

> > Maybe some of this is saying nice things about Chang in public but kind of bearing the knife behind the scenes.

> > Well, kudos to Jackie, really because if that breaking the story of the year, before we move on from the dirty laundry, I really think what here is that this is a huge black eye for the governor and his administration.

And I had heard Chang would have filed a lawsuit if they had terminated him and let him go immediately and so rather than go through that and drag that out, give him that's close to half a million dollars right for the remainder of his term.

But it's very interesting and ironic that he's going to be consulting to the very board that wanted to fire I think this is a strange bedfellows.

I think this is a really good opportunity for the legislature to sort of consider their role in ensuring something like this doesn't happen again.

A lot of the things that I found where either in his contract that permitted him to get things like a housing allowance when 90% of other college presidents across this country don't get that benefit in non Ph D degree granting institutions or a car benefit which, you know.

Very few college presidents get those.

of these things were contractual, but other things were just sort of questionable spending like going out regularly with the governor's chief of staff for his higher Ed commissioner.

You know, meeting with other state employees to get 60's $70 stakes and she gets chauffeured rides and sort of question is spending far.

I think you and I think with Jackie points out, there's nothing the governor said that's pricey.

There's no clear violations.

So it was Mike, we got you.

I mean, the optics are very bad, especially in the university system.

Your state employee, you can't really go out and lavishly take long car rides throughout Litchfield County and spend all this money.

It looks bad.

So I think they were in a tough situation.

They wanted to figure out how to get rid of him.

Has quickly and as painlessly as possible.

But it still stings a little bit.

And we're talking about taxpayer dollars in tuition dollars as well.

> > By your own steak, I mean, by Iran sake, I'm glad the Jackie brought up the separation agreement because it did sound kind of like a soft landing because, yeah, the advisory role and then there's the teaching gig at Western Connecticut State University on his way out the door the CSU system.

West Conn financial struggles and accreditation challenges of its own.

According to Connecticut Insider where Jackie works, it was out Spider-Man who told me on a previous episode of the Wheelhouse that Terrence Chain was once asked if West Com would close as a result.

He said no.

But first school like West Conn Susan, this is what will finish up.

I read with for other schools in the system.

Uconn even what comes next.

What do they do without the federal and state budget increases?

Maybe UConn's better off.

You guys are saying.

But what about the other schools?

> > You know, I don't know again, I think UConn survives no matter what.

> > And there, you know, they're very a good academic school that and tuition isn't all that much.

And they do get a huge amount of interest from out of state.

> > Whether they change that race here, ratio, I think it's harder for central for West Conn for eastern those state schools because of the fact that they are seeing a limited enrollment.

I think more people are going to the community.

Colleges than that.

I mean, that you see a lot of people there because they want to better their education news have a lot of English learners and it could be free education to it is very free.

If you go there for 2 years and then you can transition yourself to Centro.

And so I think that those schools have a tougher situation.

They don't have to create as much housing, though, is like a Yukon does which they need a lot more housing.

So what they get from the legislature will you know, we'll have to wait and > > You are in the capital.

A see.

lot of conversation, particularly since Donald Trump was reelected and he appointed Linda McMahon as U.S. Education secretary surrounding K through 12 as a result.

How are lawmakers responding to potential cuts to public educations in the final days of the 2025 legislative session.

Susan, essentially, this is your broad view, broad brush, dry brush.

So I learned yesterday that for the first time in 8 years, lawmakers are fully funding the ecs formula.

That is the > > agreed upon formula that.

The state helps municipalities or local school districts.

So that's good.

But it still falls short of what's needed for things like special education, which is enormously expensive with transportation.

And as for the bigger picture, Connecticut is losing federal funding for education.

And I think that's one of the reasons why lawmakers are very hesitant to spend any of the reserves where the surplus because they just don't know.

Republicans say it's it's not as bad as it looks.

Democrats are sounding the alarm, but we have lost funding for public health and education and as we go down that path, we don't know how much money Connecticut is going to need.

So you can be sure there will be a special session probably at the end of the summer to kind of figure that out.

> > And then really quickly, because we're running out of time let's talk about today.

We're having a morning without childcare.

So it's a special day for folks in the for advocates in the community for pretty big push by the governor and rightfully so, you know, because the payoff is huge.

If you get.

> > people mainly women who want to go back to work or, you started a career and and they have no child care.

I mean, private childcare is very, very expensive.

Plus, those places are closing down the bright horizons, the kinder care.

You don't see them and as much anymore.

I don't know if it's mainly because people can't child care desert.

They can write.

You can't afford that.

So Beth Bye in the Office of Early Childhood.

And kudos to her and there are plans on the table to make it free with some income guidelines.

There are some for everyone, but they want to provide maybe like about 20,000 children in our state and their parents, the ability to have child care.

> > You're hearing good things that the endowment could happen.

You're talking about the endowment they're talking about over 10 years funding in trying to make it.

> > All right.

They want to have like a trust fund where it would earn money on its own and and put money in there so that it would continue for long-term so they wouldn't have to keep funding at every that you go through the budget.

I think so.

What the plan is, but I think everyone is on board with that.

The question is which plan?

But the more we do with early childhood, the better we are also for the economy.

You had a comment.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

And the K through 12 of fully funding education.

I was fortunate that I got to cover the school funding trial that happened when I was an education reporter years ago.

you know, the monitor that they're fully funding education.

I would just be remiss to not mentioned that the foundation of what their funding is just pulled out of the hat based on what they can find.

It's not based on any sort of vesia Mont of how much does it actually cost to educate each child?

It's based on what the budget can afford.

And so school districts saying your $5,280 Foundation.

That hasn't changed in years I think is a good comment.

There is a good point to have made you're not basing it on the actual cost of education, education.

So vocal.

Now you see the on the air, right advertising and educators.

I've interviewed them a bunch of times.

They are at the Capitol.

They want to be heard because they need new schools.

They need money for special education.

They can't retain their teachers.

They can't recruit new teachers.

They need the money.

You've been listening to Susan Raff WFSB news channel, Three's chief political reporter.

Susan, thank you for coming on the show.

Well, good morning and thank you all.

So good to have you on the show this morning.

And of course, my other good friend Jackie Rape, Thomas.

> > Investigative reporter for Hearst Connecticut Media Group.

Jackie, Great to talk to you today.

Thanks for having me.

Oh, my God.

Thank you for coming on.

After the break, a look at what experts are calling a Democratic clip.

In higher education and what that might mean for our economy.

Do you think college is still worth it?

Give us your thoughts.

Call 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 720-9677.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ This is the Wheelhouse from Connecticut Public Radio.

I'm Frankie Graziano, Higher education is in trouble.

Between rising tuition costs, declining enrollment and political turmoil on campus.

It's future is unclear.

How the heck did we get here?

What are these institutions doing to survive joining me now, John Marcus, senior higher Ed Reporter for the Hechinger Report and co-host of the podcast College on coverage on so great to have you here.

Thanks for having us.

So good to have you back on the Wheelhouse.

Good to see you there.

And also with us, Brian Rosenberg, Brian is a visiting professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Education.

Brian, thank you so much for coming on.

The Wheelhouse.

My guys are excited to talk to you both folks can join the conversation if they like 8, 8, 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, it ate 720-9677, a lot of nuance to dig into here.

Johnny got to start with you.

Last time you were on the show, you dropped a bomb on me about smaller private colleges, how they fare in this crisis.

But I want to focus on some of these smaller sort of public colleges that we talked about in the last segment that I'm thinking about West kind.

I'm thinking about eastern Connecticut University.

I'm thinking about central Connecticut state.

That's where our reporter Susan Raff and Jacqueline rape Thomas, we're seeming to at least sound the alarm around those schools I I I I shouldn't doubt I would imagine, you know, a lot about the school somehow because you do know so much about the landscape.

Would that raising the alarm with you as well for schools like that?

> > Well, what they're facing at it, the foundation is they're just running out of students.

There are, as you mention the demographic cliff, it's been coined to talk about the decline in the number of 18 year-olds.

And that began with the Great Recession.

People stop having children during economic downturns and the Great Recession in 2008 that that happened 18 years later, the high school graduates about to graduate over the next few weeks, including in Connecticut.

That's that the peak number of 18 year-old that begins to decline in Connecticut because down 10% by 2034.

So there's just fewer students going to these universities.

It's much harder to close a public university that it is the cause, a private college because there's so many more constituents and there's so much more accountability to legislators and taxpayers.

But it's happening.

It's happening in states like Vermont, Pennsylvania, Georgia has merged 14 public university campuses.

So it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

> > College enrollment was 14.8% below peak enrollment in 2022.

Versus 2010, Brian, that's according to the National Center for Education Statistics, fewer and fewer people choosing to go to college these days.

Why?

> > Well, > > obviously, demographics as part of it, but being on demographics is to say fewer people are choosing to go.

I think 2 main reasons.

One is It's it's expensive.

And it's complicated to figure out how much it costs.

> > The other reason is the perceived value of the Greek.

I think a lot of of students, particularly male students.

> > Making the calculation that both the financial cost them the opportunity costs are worth it.

And are choosing either to go directly into the Labor force or to take short-term educational programs that cost less and get them into jobs more quickly.

So rightly or wrongly, there is definitely a perception.

The value of a traditional bachelor's degree have declined.

And so fewer students are choosing to go.

> > We're talking so much about this demographic cliff and we're going to get to it a little further.

But also asking whether or not college is worth it.

That's not us openly questioning that college is worth it.

Folks that are listening to the show, we're just trying to make sure that we're talking about one of the issues facing colleges and universities right now.

Last year we talked about the crisis facing private excuse me.

I'm thinking about college and University Endowments John can schools dip into their endowments and if not now, then when could endowments or at least 8 reserves help schools in Connecticut concerned about state in federal funding.

> > Yeah, if not know the wind is really a question what universities will tell you is that endowment are often restricted by the donors to feel only a particular role in a financial emergency and some small private institutions have done this.

You can literally go to court and ask a judge for permission to use endowment funding for purposes other than what was specified by the donor.

But universities have been reluctant to do that.

They also tend to be hesitant to dip into their role as universities use less of their endowment.

So rain down its enrollment.

Universities use less of their endowment, less of a proportion of their endowment.

The other charitable institutions.

And there's actually one exception in the law for them.

fled to peace have to use at least 5% of the proceeds from their endowment universities don't end so surprisingly, during periods of of stress preceding this one during COVID during the Great Recession, universities tended not to dip into endowment that you would have assumed they were saving for a rainy day.

Some critics and economists that study to suggest that's because the size of an endowment is a measure of the prestige of your institution and universities don't want to reduce the size of their endowments and lest they absolutely have no other choice.

> > Are there really arid sort of demographic desert?

So another way, I guess to say that would be are there areas in the United States that are experiencing worse demographic declines and others?

> > Yeah, we live in one the Northeast and the Midwest.

38 states will see declines in number of 18 year-olds.

12 won't.

So those tend to be in the Sun Belt in in the Southwest and so the challenge for universities and college is in states like Connecticut and New York, New York is going to see a 27% decline in the number of 18 year-olds.

I live in Boston.

That's a problem in Boston because a lot of the students that come here to universities and college is come from New York.

They're gonna have to start to to recruit from places that they haven't traditionally and groups that they haven't traditionally notably Hispanics, students who are the only as a group within 18 year-olds.

That's that's increasing.

Every other group is declining.

Universities have been graded enrolling, Hispanic students.

Now it's a matter of survival for them.

> > I want to talk about that particular demographic in that, particularly that that that that city had well as well in the second.

In your estimation, Brian, is the financial trajectory of higher education.

The United States.

The word we want to use here sustainable.

So for schools and for students.

> > The exception of a very small group of very wealthy schools.

I actually don't think it's sustainable.

We talk about and down.

That's, for instance.

The reality is that the vast majority of colleges and universities in the United States.

Very, very small endowments.

We tend to think about places like Harvard with 53 billion dollars or Princeton or private colleges like Wesleyan.

But the reality is the vast majority don't have him down is to get into.

And I also think that with the exception of the wealthiest, the vision of this going to be very, very hard.

This is a standard project, financial trajectory of these institutions.

The discount rate at private institutions in the United States right now is getting close to 60%.

If you walk into a store and you saw signed up to 60% off everything you would assume was a close and that number goes up every year and said earlier you get to 100% of the good to have to get away for free, which is obviously not sustainable.

I'm sorry.

going to be I think I think there needs to be a serious rethink of the entire financial model.

> > I'm sorry.

Laugh at that because but it's a great alliteration to just to think about the picture of the 60% off sale.

And it goes back to what Jon told me about a year ago, which is that there is sticker shock.

But nobody's paying the sticker price anymore.

And I would imagine that school watched say that that a lot of people are paying the stick sticker price anymore.

And a lot of schools I would imagine would like to raise the cost of to trudge up tuition to try to get through this.

But that's not necessarily something that can happen.

John.

> > And actually lower the price of tuition when adjusted for inflation and it for a year, right at 448 universities, not a single student.

No one student pays the sticker price.

That is the list price that the college advertises that it costs.

They pay 438 schools nationwide.

48 schools nationwide.

Now one student pays the list.

Price.

It's a it's strange sort of strategy that universities and college of trouble getting up getting themselves out of of advertising, the high price and then offering scholarships as an inducement to recruit students.

It's become a shrine, says that, you know, the the the discount rate, the proportion of tuition that goes back out the door in the form of distance of financial aid is now more than half of revenue.

That is absolutely understandable.

One issue, though, that your listeners be aware of if they have kids in college or think articles themselves is that that doesn't mean it's cheaper to go to college because what colleges, universities or doing your previous guests were talking about housing at the University of Connecticut, for instance, zing and dining, which I think a lot of people think there's a perception that the university's break even on those things that do not they make a lot of money on those things and they're shifting a lot of the revenue generation to those.

So the real increase in the cost of college now is dorms and dining and not tuition.

> > The enrollment the decline in enrollment.

We want to try to figure out what it means for jobs and the economy, especially in areas where colleges and universities are closing.

Can you help me with that?

John?

Yes, I always say that this is a really important play.

Not everybody needs to go to college.

I think that.

> > We for a while we're sending a message that everybody had to go to college and a lot of people went to know why they were there.

Never finished, ended up with debt, never attended credential.

But somebody needs to go to college.

We live in a in a global knowledge economy where we're competing against rival economic rivals who have increased the college-going levels of their young people while in America.

It's declined.

As Brian pointed out, the proportion of high school graduates going directly to college is way down from 70%.

That was the peak in 2016 to about 62%.

Now, that's a big proportion of Americans who are voting with their feet, that they do think college is worth it.

If you know, for some people it might not be in some programs that might not be in some ages.

It might not be.

But if some people don't go to college, where in trouble, we are also experiencing another demographic shift, which is the retirement of the baby boomers.

All of those people who really well very well educated people.

So one needs to fill those jobs and we are not producing enough college graduates to do it.

> > Got a caller.

Joining us now from Woodbury, Connecticut is going to be dog your on with John Marcus, Brian Rosenberg and myself Ranking Cratty on the go ahead, Doug.

> > I thank you.

I generally agree with a lot of Sun says so far.

The that the cost and benefit is is strongly being questioned.

And I think that's that's probably true.

That's good.

But there's other aspects and there seems to be a lot of focus on effectively blaming university systems in the funding of the university system.

And I think that's off center.

That's misguided.

I think that society in general needs to have an understanding that defending democracy really requires demands.

Well educated people.

All all kinds of education with a large and hearing loss medicine.

We need that kind of culture.

And I think that the the value that a college education or us a strong education can bring to the populace is being not represented very well as certain that culture know.

You're saying that.

I saying that college systems are getting blamed.

> > Who should who should shoulder the blame?

There should be society should be regular people and how they value education.

> > I think that corporations can change their focus.

They really just want people to do certain jobs to make the money and profit.

And I think the corporations need to improve their culture.

> > Of their being old because ended as of just money mongers have people work for them and they they can change that to really good.

Technical, innovative people and a culture that cares about this society.

A lot of them.

I think the companies that corporations, the stock market needs to change.

And I think the culture of the country needs to be improved to defend democracy in education for all.

> > Thank you, Doug.

I appreciate that.

And we're going to talk later on in this episode about.

Why exactly what you are addressing their and what can be done to kind of fix enrollment.

And before we go there before and Brian, respond to that call, I just want to kind of talk about why somebody would need a college degree in 2025, let's get there now.

Brian, let's talk about despite all these challenges, white people should actually go to college.

> > Al dress that I do want to address that.

That question because I thought it was a wonderful comment obviously.

Despite all of the criticisms of of the value of colors, the data still suggest that an investment in a college degree has the highest are already pretty much of an investment you can make that is for most people who get a four-year bachelor's degree by the time they're out of their 30 years, whatever they spend on it will have paid itself back and more so financially for most people, of course, there are always exceptions.

It's still the right decision.

But the point that your caller made is a really important one.

And that is that in order to have a functional democracy, you need an educated citizenry.

When Thomas Jefferson founded the University of Virginia are when Benjamin Franklin founded what became the University of Pennsylvania, it was very clear about the fact that they wanted these schools too, provide vocational training, but they also wanted them to educate the kind of citizens who make democracy possible.

And so there's a real danger if we lose sight of the role of education in a democracy that our democracy will degrade.

And unfortunately, I do believe we're seeing some of that right now.

And so I would never diminish the importance of colleges, vocational training.

But it's not the only one of college and we need to remind ourselves of that as well.

> > If you go back go ahead, John Yapp picking up some of the south.

So another part of what the caller said.

I think it's also important and and 100% agree.

You know, it's important in a democracy.

We have an educated educated citizenry, but but to put the blame on colleges, there is a degree to which.

The question arises.

And Brian wrote an entire book about this or college is really paying enough attention to doing what they do more efficiently, more effectively more productively completion rate have not improved.

That is the proportion of students actually graduate.

I'm going to pick up and Bryant analogy.

If you are private business in fewer than half of your customers got what they paid for in the case of higher education.

That's the proportion of students who finish before you degree in 4 years.

You would be out of business.

So there are a lot of there's a little bit underneath all of the chaos and turmoil.

That's politically, you know, driven right now.

There are legitimate questions to be raised about whether what we're getting for our money is efficient and effective.

Let's talk about that book.

That Brian wrote.

> > Brian Rosenberg, of course, from the Harvard Graduate School of Education.

But let's talk about it after the break.

You're listening to the Wheelhouse on Connecticut Public.

Frankie Graziano.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ This is the Wheelhouse from Connecticut Public Radio.

I'm Frankie Graziano.

Still with me, Brian Rosenberg visiting professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Education.

And John Marcus, senior higher Ed Reporter for the Hechinger Report and co-host of the Podcast College uncovered.

Are you worried about college and university closures is a college education as relevant and necessary as it was.

25 years ago.

Give us a call.

8, 8, 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 720-9677.

Let's dig into why it's important and what can be done to get people to college, more people to college.

Brian, your book, whatever it is, I'm against it.

Offer some solutions for struggling colleges and universities.

Can you highlight some of your recommendations?

> > Sure.

And I just want to make the point higher education has been described as a deeply conservative industry populated by highly progressive people.

And that's probably change the last over the last century than any other industry in the country.

And as John said, that's just not acceptable.

And higher education does need to look in the mirror.

When you have about 40% of African-American students graduating within 6 or 8 years.

That should not be acceptable.

So so what can colleges do I think they need to rethink the way they > > There's a lot of evidence teach.

to suggest that learning through doing is more effective than learning through listening.

And yet we still have a lot of institutions that rely very heavily on lectures.

Colleges can do much more to connect themselves with their local communities, with employers with K through 12 schools.

You know, colleges have both a literal and metaphorical walls around them.

And I don't think that works and more.

I think colleges need to think about looking outward.

And less about looking inward and rely more heavily on things like apprenticeships, internships.

And colleges need experiment with new ways of teaching new ways of organizing themselves.

They're incredibly inefficient financially and they most college just can't get away with operating that way any longer.

A consumer can't pay for and the outcomes don't justify.

> > The way talk about it, Brian, it makes me think of the the college as everything essentially being community college.

It being at the center of the very fabric of a community or group hate.

John, you reported on declining enrollment.

But you've seen something interesting happened in one market specifically.

We're talking about this earlier, Latino and Latina students.

> > Yeah, this is fascinating.

So that's the only growth market the number of late black and Asian.

18 year-old is declining.

The number of over the next.

I think it's 14 years.

The number of Hispanic, 18 year-olds goes up by 14%.

But but Hispanic enrollment overall is lower.

Then white and Asian enrollment and so universities have to work at enrolling, more recruiting, more Hispanic students.

That's been complicated by some of the pushback against dei universities that are doing a good job in rolling Hispanic students aren't necessarily doing anything unique to them.

They're providing support services that that apply to all students.

but many of them tend to interpret these attacks with some level of I would call it paranoia that they can't get caught doing anything that might be interpreted as the catering to a particular a group they and the basis of race, gender, sexual orientation so even when we wrote a story about universities and college is that we're doing a really good job and it really Hispanic students and thereby ensuring their continued revenue from tuition.

Their continued strong enrollment.

Their continued service sustainability to use your word.

they would talk about it.

They wouldn't discuss it with us.

They were actually succeeding at something.

> > But they were afraid at this to to discuss it.

so that is really worrisome that those 2 trends are are intersecting at the same time.

I think that's the impact of a lot of this chaos that's going on.

The culture wars attacks and college and universities, the cuts to research funding the investigations into the 80's semitism.

They're coming on top of it already really significant problem that we've been discussing about demographics and enrollment and completion and all of these things have an ultimate effect on our economy and instead of fixing these things were making the Morse.

> > I appreciate you taking us squarely to the intersection of politics.

In higher education and helps us do the work to get higher and on the Wheelhouse.

So thank you for doing that.

John Bryan, let's talk about something else that is is is right in that particular arena.

Recent crackdown on campus protests.

Are we seeing any impact of this on the stability of colleges and universities?

> > Well, I'm just seeing a lot of changes in college and university policies were probation in relation to protests.

Colleges are calling in the police much more quickly.

They're changing their guidelines.

Some of it is is appropriate.

I think having my own do having students wear masks a campus when they protest is problematic because we don't know.

In fact, if it's even a student.

But some of it really got into the area of of freedom of speech and academic freedom and because really, really troubling it's certainly not helping the perception of higher education.

And I think that that's also being used for pretty obvious political reasons, even at a place like Columbia University, which says has been the site of the largest protests in the country.

Already got one of my degrees.

For 35,000 Students of Columbia and maybe most there were 300 or 400 involved in the protests and yet the perception is the argument is among some people that come to is a factory.

For marks, a students and it's kind of ridiculous when the profession is a graduate of places like Harvard and Columbia going to disproportionately are areas like finance and consulting.

These are these are not young Marxist.

They're very much got the capital with.

> > You said there, this is kind of like where we're at in society right here.

Talk about kids wearing masks on protests and it's it.

There's the safety issue.

And we talked a lot about having issues, particularly in the early days of the Israel-Hamas conflict about having people from out of school coming to campus.

But then you have the very real issue of they're being international students and then being worried about being taken away by the Trump administration.

So it's so fascinating to see all of this take place on campus.

I do have a common in this kind of goes through to the fact that Brian Rosenberg, who I who I speak to here was the former president at McAllister College.

He works at Harvard University and the graduate school there.

And he has a degree from Columbia University.

Here's a comment from Jackie from New Haven.

> > I carry 2 degrees and was educated in Connecticut masters at Quinnipiac University.

I think it would be really sad of can if people with the desire to learn stopped at high school.

> > And also I spoke to a woman at Gateway Community College earlier this year.

She is in her late 70's and she is.

I think her goal is to get a million degrees and she continues to learn.

So tell me, folks, as we finish up, how important is an education you guys can get the final thoughts.

You start us out, Brian.

> > I still think that education is the key to solving most of the world's problems.

Education is the one thing you can invest in.

That has a as a payoff in virtually every area in the world.

Just a response to that is that 70 year-old?

I think one of the things that higher education needs to start thinking about.

The thing about itself is not as something that you do on the way to something, but something that happens throughout one's live.

Ultimately the economic answer for a lot of these institutions is the shift to a different market.

> > The officer, do you know I got to cut you off there because we've got to get John and for a final thought here.

You've got a bad bout 20 seconds or China's John.

> > Yeah, I mean, easy to say in 20 seconds that I agree with Brian there.

But there's the imperial data suggesting that you make more money over time with a degree than you do that one now, does that always justify the debt or the cost?

I don't know.

And it would be nice to watch everybody work together so that instead of waiting from the trenches.

> > So glad to talk to John Marcus today from the Hechinger Report and also with Brian Rosenberg visiting professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Education.

Actually do a lot of work together.

It's great to hear their minds here on college.

Very important.

If you'd like to hear the future of higher education in America today show produced by Chloe.

When added by Robin doing Aiken technical producers dealing race.

Thank you, Megan Fitzgerald and company for helping us out with a show.

Download the Wheelhouse anytime on your favorite podcast app.

Thank you.

Tess Terrible as well.

Handling the phones.

I'm frankly Graziano.

This is the Wheelhouse.

Thank you so much for listening ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪