[Lucy Nalpathanchil] Well, thank you again to the University of Hartford and to our audience here at Millard Auditorium as we host conversations around our state at Connecticut Public Civility Initiative.

As we talk more about what is ailing our country and some of the ways that our communities can work together to fix some of the problems we see not only locally but nationally as well.

It is my great honor to share the stage with Governor Ned Lamont and our former governor, M. Jodi Rell, here at Millard Auditorium.

If you could give them another hand.

[Applause] Now you've got to.

It feels good to be back in person again, it's been several months now, but what is it like for you to sit here together and how far back does your friendship go?

[Gov.

Lamont] Well, I'll tell yo feels really good to be here in person here at the University of Hartford, and particularly here at the Rell Center for Public Service.

I've known Jodi Rell for many years.

Last time I saw her, we were greeting young people as they came to the governor's residence for the Christmas holiday season.

And that's a relationship that means a lot, and it's going to be an easy conversation for me, Jodi.

[Gov.

Rell] I agree.

I think it's it's really good to be here.

And I thank all of you for coming out tonight.

I hope it wasn't raining when you came in.

And I kind of was hoping that it would kind of just blow away so that we'd have a large crowd.

And we have a great crowd here tonight.

So thanks for coming.

> > And the topic, civil discourse, it can be contentious at times.

You know that better than anyone when you are traveling around the state, having served as our governor now and your second term.

When we think about civility, the meaning of that word, it means different things to different people.

And so I wanted to start there.

And I'll start with you, Governor Lamont.

Tell us what civility means to you.

> > Treating people with respect.

Listening to what they have to say.

Never attack their motivations.

Discuss where you stand on the issues.

I think that's what Jodi Rell epitomized as our governor.

I think that's what integrity and character is all about.

I breathe a little easier when the legislature is not in session, to tell you the truth, but it's really important to know people and know where they're from and know about their family circumstance, and listen there.

And when you do that as fellow governors, I can tell you a lot of the tension goes out of the room, you realize how much you have in common.

[Gov.

Rell] I think the governor You know, oftentimes I think that we interchange the word integrity with civility, and it's not always the same.

But in many cases, I think that we also and again, the governor hit on it.

You really need to listen and I think that's what makes civility work.

We hear things.

The other night I was watching television and a commercial came on and I thought, oh, God, not that guy again.

I can't stand listening to.

And I went like that to turn it off.

And I thought, here's the problem.

We already know when somebody is coming into a room.

We've already made up our mind that we don't really want to hear that.

We don't want to listen to that.

You know, and again, I'm just equating a commercial right now, but and I often use school boards as an example, poor school board members, they get a rough, rough time.

But if they're the ones that are sitting there and somebody is coming in and they say, oh, not him again, I've heard it all before.

There's a big difference there between listening and hearing.

You can hear the noise, but you really need to listen to what people are saying so that you can take that and then calmly listen to what they have to say.

Lucy, you actually said it to me and I remember this.

You can't always change their opinion.

They're going to have to change their opinion on something on their own after listening.

And I think that that's important and I think that we can do that.

> > We've been getting some attention for hosting this conversation in partnership with the University of Hartford.

And, you know, I've been a longtime journalist at Connecticut Public, and I was speaking to another journalist in our state, and she shared the observation that hearing Governor Lamont and Governor Rell in conversation about civility, it's kind of like hearing the difference between vanilla and French vanilla.

[Laughter] And I thought, well, that means I'm bringing the chocolate into the conversation.

But, you know, kidding aside, you know, people assume that, you know, civility means being nice.

But if we're really being serious about where we are right now in this country, it's hard to think about being nice when we see deepening polarization in our communities.

We see political violence increasing, we see some groups of people embracing anti-democratic norms.

And so is civility all we need to fix what's wrong with our country, Governor Rell.

> > I think we need a lot more than civility.

But I think that, someone was talking this week with me, I was at a luncheon, and she was saying, you know, we're so divided as a country that there's the far right, the far left.

What we need to do is to get that middle group, that center group, more energized, let them.

[Applause] But we need to empower them, and the only way we can empower them and make a difference is to listen to them, let them be our disciples is the word that comes to mind, get them out and start to, you know, talk to other people and events like this I think by being shown, people can say it's not just being nice, it is listening to people, it is adhering to what I call good manners and you know, be yourself but be able to work with people easily.

> > I don't know what's the matter would be nice.

I mean, you can have a big decisive visive issues out there, but doesn't have to change the tone of your voice and have to let Tip O'Neill and Ronnie Reagan, that was the famous conflict they had over Social Security back about 40 years ago.

But they could do it in a civil way.

I think it lowered the temperature, helped things get done, you know, in the legislature we have real differences back and forth.

But at the end of the day, you know, we can sit down and break bread.

I think the severity of the issues doesn't impact how nice you are to people and how you respect people.

> > Will you talk more about the critiques when people hear the word civility being used.

We know there are groups of people in our country that feel marginalized.

And when they hear civility, they think this is just another tool to keep them quiet, to maintain the status quo.

So how do you answer those concerns?

> > Tough question, Lucy, I don't know how you answer that.

I mean, people are going to have their own opinions on whether or not it affects them just by being civil or by being nice.

You know, when we were introduced tonight, I heard the Democrat and Republican, and I'm not going to put anybody in the audience on the spot.

But I mean, I bet if you think for a second when Governor Jodi Rell is introduced as the Republican, the former Republican governor, there probably are some people to go, oh, great, now we've got some wacko Republican out here, some far right person coming to the stage.

And the same thing with, you know, Governor Lamont.

You know, he's introduced as the Democrat governor with people in the audience, and I'm not going to embarrass you and ask you to raise your hands, say, oh, great, we have a crazy Democrat, you know, far left person.

What you don't understand by saying that or by thinking that in advance is that you don't know us.

Yes, I'm conservative, but I'm conservative in fiscal matters, just as Governor Lamont is.

I'm more much more liberal in social issues, and I think Governor Lamont is as well.

We are more alike than different.

And I think that, when people say, well, it's just another word to be nice to us, get to know us, get to know what those issues are and how we feel about them and what we think about them and what we think about you.

And that will make the difference.

> > You know, there could be tough issues out there.

There could be people who are marginalized, mad as hell, racism, George Floyd.

But how you respond to that is going to measure how effective, what a change it is.

I was so proud of Connecticut after the murder of George Floyd, and I look at what's going on around the rest of the country.

And here our state police took a knee with many of the protesters right out here in Hartford on the street.

And I think it sent a message around the country that not that we don't take these issues seriously, but we take each other seriously and we respect each other.

I think it makes a difference.

That's how you make a difference.

> > I think it's important to mention that you are a Republican and you are a Democrat because we know and there's been lots of research, especially when we look at media coverage, it's the partisans, the extreme voices that get all of the attention and you don't hear about the bipartisanship.

Many of the people in this room have been involved in politics, whether in Connecticut or elsewhere.

You know, there's a lot of bipartisan work being done behind the scenes, but it's not always highlighted.

What do you think about that, Governor?

> > I can tell you when maybe Congressman battle and senators battle, and it's a little more ideological down there in Washington and Jodi and I was talking about, you know, governors, we all are confronting the same issues.

You know, when we were hit by COVID, I was on the phone every day with Gina Raimondo and Charlie Baker.

And what do you do and what makes the most sense?

And there was no room for ideology at that point.

Baker was the guy I was probably closest to, and he's a Republican, he was a business guy, so we always sort of hung out together a little bit.

I always loved the story about him because they said they did 23 and Me genetic tests on Elizabeth Warren and it found out that she is .01% Iroquois.

Haha.

Then they did a genetic test on Charlie Baker and found he was .01% Republican and everybody loved it and I always teased him with that every time I see him.

[Lucy Nalpathanchil] Talk more about the voices that we tend to hear more of and how that impacts the polarization that we're seeing.

[Gov.

Rell] I think, Lucy, we probably talked about this before, but I'm going to tell the story.

If you can tell a story, I can, too.

There were two really great individual legislators in the House of Representatives when I was a freshman, one Republican, one Democrat, and the debate that day happened to be on the death penalty.

The Democrat did not approve of it and was determined that Connecticut was going to get rid of the death penalty.

The Republican was determined that we would keep it and some crimes were so horrible that we had to have it.

I sat there as a freshman legislator watching this debate.

It was like a tennis match, you know, back and forth.

I thought they were going to come to blows.

I thought they were really going to come to blows.

When the debate was over, the vote was taken.

They met in the well of the House.

I was sitting in my seat in the chamber, shook hands, and I thought, what?

They actually are friendly to each other after that, I thought they were going to kill each other.

But they were so intense in their debate that it was.

But the partisanship was gone.

After that, the friendship was there.

And I think if people get to see that more often, I think that, you know, it will breed even more.

It isn't like it used to be.

It's never going to be like it used to be.

I'm sure that my parents would say today, oh my God, you know, in our day it was this, and I do it now, too.

But things are going to be different.

But there's no reason why we can't be fair and polite to each other and work together comes out in the end.

Your friends.

> > So let me ask you, Governor Rell, you've had a long career, many years in the state legislature before you were you were lieutenant governor and then elected in your own right.

I mean, you became governor and then the many years that you served through 2011, looking at where we are right now with the heat.

Would you enter office today?

No, no.

It's become ugly.

And I'm sad to say that, but I think there are many people that you know and I know this young man who happens to be a mayor in a town, and he said that, he said that after so many years, I don't want to do it anymore.

You know, and it's not just because it's not nice.

But there are you know, I mean, it's sometimes, you know, when it's time to move on.

But there are some people that said it's so ugly out there.

And again, I'll go back to some of the school board meetings.

We've all seen them on television.

And, you know, they run among, you know, local stations and what have you.

And I see some of the members sitting there like this.

Why am I here?

Why am I here?

I don't need this aggravation.

If somebody is going to be yelling at me all night saying, you know, I don't want you to and you've got somebody pointing their finger in there in your face now they don't want to.

And what what's really sad about that?

You ask me the question, no, I wouldn't do it.

But at the same time, how many people are going to say no to public service because things have turned so ugly?

And I think we need to change that if we ever want to get people to serve in the legislature to run for the governor's office, you know, to be on the school board, the board of finance, if you turn them off by the discourse, we're not going to get them.

[Gov.

Lamont] That's the most discouraging thing I've heard all day that Jodi Rell says, I would never get into public service given how ugly.

> > I didnt say I wouldn't get public service, I wouldnt run > > Well, politics.

Yeah, because we got to change that.

I mean, you can't just have people from a very narrow political class are the only ones who want to serve in public office and run for elections.

You've got to change it.

You've got to widen the lens.

I want a wider variety of people feeling comfortable and confident.

And, you know, I, I find it's a little bit of a performance art this politics things sometimes.

But these guys, we have a nice meeting in our office and everybody's sort of pretty cool.

And then they go out and get in front of a camera and they go ballistic and then I say, "What was that about?"

They said, "You know, people thought we were too friendly with each other.

I'm helping you and me."

I mean, it's a little bit of a performance game sometime, but I, you know, it's The Rell Center for Public Service.

You know, I as the guy who spent most of his life in the sector you don't get those brickbats quite the same way.

There's nothing more fulfilling, I think, than being able to make a difference in public service and the feedback you get from people who have been positively impacted so outweighs that occasional column that tears at you.

> > We've been talking about some of the contentious times we've seen during COVID.

There were some meetings, I remember that people showed up upset with COVID restrictions, and I believe you had to leave one of those meetings.

I think you know what I'm talking about.

There was a whole group with you.

I think it was with the state education commissioner and others.

So in those moments, because you're also human, Governor Lamont.

Right.

So you've got to you know, there's a certain presence that you have.

And you know that every word will be scrutinized.

But when someone is shouting at you and being disrespectful to you, what is the first thing that comes to mind?

[Gov.

Rell] Don't say it.

[Laughter] > > I tried.

[Applause] > > You know, it was a little schizophrenic.

I mean, there you are in December everybody going ballistic because wheres my mask?

Where's the rapid tests?

I want this tomorrow.

How could you leave me?

And then three weeks later, they're burning their mask like they're burning their bras in the sixties.

And it was schizophrenic in that sense.

But I think fundamentally, you had to explain to people what was going on.

You can't do it by dictate.

You can't say it's my way or the highway.

And we tried every day in those evening newscasts to just explain what we're trying to do, why we're trying to do it, and I think most people were pretty understanding.

You're right.

By the end, the ideologies started breaking people apart.

But I think Connecticut held together pretty well.

> > What we've been mentioning polarization a few times, and there's so much research now.

They look at ideological polarization.

But then also researchers talk about something called affective polarization or emotional polarization.

And so when you hear people, whether it's in your families or your communities, badmouthing somebody based on their party affiliation, it's more about the emotional feeling versus what they believe that person might believe based on their party affiliation.

And we know that in politics that works for some politicians to exploit that and it deepens that polarization, and so when we talk about politicians having a role in combating what we're seeing in our country, I wonder if you can talk about that.

The places where politics is broken down and why Americans, some of them are frustrated.

Who wants to take that one?

[Gov Lamont] I say on the political side, voting against somebody is sometimes much more energizing in voting for something.

And I think you see that reflected in a lot of the campaigns out there right now.

And Jodi Rell, never ran a race that way.

You always know who you were voting for, why you were voting for, where she wanted to go in the most positive way.

But the other thing I'd just say, Lucy, is there are little things that were totally impermissible when I was growing up, little comments that could be racist or anti-gay.

And and they get by.

And I just need people to stand up, especially on a college campus.

Don't be rude.

Don't be mean spirited about it.

Don't be haughty about it.

But just say I think that's inappropriate.

I don't feel comfortable there.

You ought to know what that impact is on other people.

Those little guardrails will make a big difference.

[Applause] > > Well.

I'm just thinking it's not just in politics, though.

Seems to be where we are tonight mostly.

But thinking in terms of, you know, someone's emotional response to anything is it's not your fault.

It's not your responsibility to correct it.

It's not you know, it's not up to you to make them change their mind or do something.

I'm thinking in terms too, of I hate using the word Karen.

I have a friend in Florida whose name is Karen, but there's, you know, the term.

Oh, that's a Karen.

That's a Karen.

That's somebody who misbehaves.

Recently there was a Karen who opened who opened her bag from Taco Bell and it was missing something.

And instead of walking up to the person and saying, excuse me, but my two tacos aren't in here, there's only one.

She took the bag and threw it at this person.

My theory behind that is if no one is hurt, I'm not going to get involved personally.

I'm talking about me.

But she probably has a reason for being angry.

I don't know what goes on in her life, but that's not the way to handle it.

How do we as people who are in public service, if there's somebody, a legislator or somebody else who's throwing a fit and saying "Governor, why did you do this?

Why did you mandate this?"

And you have an answer for them, but they're not listening to you.

It's not your responsibility.

It is your job as governor to try to get them to come in line.

It's not my job to get that Karen to behave herself in Taco Bell.

And I think that we see so much of that in social media.

You see it on every Facebook thing.

There's a different story.

Something's happening out there.

And I think that has a big influence on how people are acting all across our country.

> > Anybody named Karen out there?

> > I'm sorry, Karen.

> > Sorry, Karen.

> > I mentioned we've been doing these civility conversations around our state and we had an event I believe, at the Greenwich Library where a person in the audience had submitted a question ahead of time, and I thought it was important to bring it up for this conversation, too, because you touched on it.

And the question was, how do you manage to remain civilwith someone who acts on views that you find morally reprehensible, like bigotry?

And at what point does civility become complicity?

> > Oh, you take that one.

> > I'll get back to Karen for...

I think that you as a person, what your beliefs and how you feel, You'll know when it's time to step up.

We were talking about this in the green room earlier, you know, or blue room, whatever color it is.

And, how do you how do you know that you're, getting back to what I was talking about, Karen, Is it my responsibility to step up?

Yes, it is your responsibility.

If you see someone you know who is a bigot or a racist or something, it is your responsibility.

In this day and age there are a lot of people who are going to stand back and say, I could get shot if I say something, or I could get mugged if I say something.

It is your personal being that would dictate what do you say and how do you say it?

I could not be in a room where someone is talking ugly to you who's talking like, I could talk ugly to you, but I wouldn't.

But if no one else and I and I think that it's you have to know in your heart when you can step up.

And if you can't, then shame on you.

> > Id only add, Lucy, don't imply that by being civil, you're somehow weak or compromising or not standing up for what's right.

I mean, you stand up loud and clear, but I think you're much more effective if you stay within yourself and respect the conversation.

Listen, as Jodi keeps saying, listen, listen and respond to what people say, don't respond with a preset response.

Respond to what people are saying.

And I think you move the ball down the field a lot more effectively that way.

By being angry or pounding your fist.

> > We at Connecticut Public, we've been learning a lot from Braver Angels, which is a cross partisan group that started a several years ago.

We have a alliance here in Connecticut, the Braver Angels, Connecticut Alliance.

And we spoke with and we brought in Monica Guzman, who wrote the book, she's a journalist, "I Never Thought About It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times" and she is a Latina, her parents came to this country from Mexico and she lives in Seattle.

So very liberal environment.

And she is very open that she did not support Donald Trump or believe in his policies, but her parents did vote for him.

And when she would bring this up with people, he'd be like, what?

What's wrong with your parents?

And so that's how she got into this work, because she loves her parents and she can't imagine ever dismissing them based on how they vote.

And that conversation happens in a lot of families.

I think people in this room could probably share there might be someone in their family or a close friend.

And based on politics, you have broken off that relationship.

And so, I mean, when we talk about politics, I mean, it has ripple effects and consequences that hit home personally.

And so I'm wondering when we think about whether or not to have a conversation with someone because their beliefs can be offensive to us.

But how do we manage that?

I mean, we talk about like it's important to be civil and respectful, but we also know, again, that we're human, that emotions get in the way and we don't want to burn bridges.

But a lot of people have been burning bridges.

> > I'll take that one.

> > Go.

> > I'm just sitting here thinking about my son and my son in law, not politics now.

Yankees, Red Sox.

They have come to an agreement.

They don't talk about baseball.

They don't.

Nope.

If it comes up.

They just move on the conversation.

You just use the key word.

We want to be respectful.

If you differ in, you know, how you vote or your political leanings, if it's your close family, you know, again, it gets back to our personal beliefs and our personal way of handling things.

I would say be respectful.

We will have to agree to disagree.

But it depends.

I mean, why get into a fight with your mother or your father because you have a different political view.

Politics isn't the all end all.

It isn't truly, and it isn't worth having a division in a family.

I think that you just go your separate ways on that conversation.

But if you want to get your point across, make sure you listen first.

Why are the again, you don't want to be closed off by saying you're voting for Trump?

Well, you know, I won't talk to you.

Well, I don't either.

But at the same time, you know, I want to listen to why you think that's important, why you think you would vote for him or say, we disagree and leave it at that.

Governor Lamont?

> > Guys ever see that Saturday Night Live during the most bellicose of the Trump times, they are having a Thanksgiving dinner and they're yelling at each other.

And then Adele's song comes on Hello, November.

And all the temperature goes down, then it goes off.

They start fighting again.

Look, I don't agree with a damn thing that Donald Trump believes and works on, but he's a is quite a chord.

It's a little bit of the sense that people are talking down to me and it's a little bit of this anti elite thing and I think he's got this that's his hold on people that feel like they've been ignored and not taken seriously for a generation.

And, and, that's why I think it's even more important that if you disagree, you do it in a constructive way and you listen to those people who you may say, oh my God, what are they doing?

They're so coarse, so rude.

I can't believe they're doing that.

And you'll see what's, what's, behind their anger and you can move the ball.

> > Because we've mentioned Donald Trump again.

He's running for reelection, right?

When against our current president, Joe Biden.

And a lot of people are frustrated that they're the leading candidates at this point.

We've got another election year coming ahead and we expect that there'll be even more contention.

I mean, how are you feeling?

I know you don't have a crystal ball, but it's the same players that are that bring on these emotions, whether it's someone supports President Joe Biden or former President Donald Trump.

So how are we actually going to see some movement here in a positive direction?

> > We've got two sort of incumbent president is running.

So my instinct is they'll probably both be the gladiators.

At the end of the day.

Obviously, I'm a Joe Biden guy, but I like the way he handles Donald Trump.

He doesn't always take the bait, you know, maybe uses the word MAGA too much.

But I think he engages in a way.

He's been a he's been so proud of his ability to work over the last hundred years, you know, on both sides of the aisle.

He loves the story about Jesse Helms.

You ever heard that story?

He walked into Mike Mansfield's office this is back in the eighties, hed go that God damn Jesse Helms.

He's such a racist.

Not only that, he won't even help out kids with disabilities.

He's voting against my bill.

And I'm shocked and outraged by this man.

Everything he stands for and Mike Mansfield said about Jesse Helms was not my favorite.

You got to understand that Jesse Helms looked at a newspaper ad of a young nine year old boy who had severe cerebral palsy.

And he said, if only I had somebody who loved me.

And Jesse Helms adopted that child and he was the son for the next generation.

And it's Biden's way of saying you can challenge people on the issues but don't always attack their motivations.

You don't know where they're coming from unless you listen.

[Lucy Nalpathanchil] Governor Rell?

> > Thanks a lot.

You know.

Well, you said the last hundred years.

I didn't say that.

I thought it, but I didn't say it.

We have two people that are the frontrunners right now.

My hope is that there will be someone who comes along and says, I am your savior and and in both parties and says, look, vote for me.

I have new, fresh ideas.

And I think that we can I'd love for you to come listen to what I have to say and maybe maybe one of them maybe one of them will come out and lead the charge for their political party.

> > You know, we're in a state where unaffiliated voters far surpass registered Republicans or Democrats.

What do you think that speaks to Governor Lamont?

And do you see more people being so disgusted with the political process that they want to not be affiliated with a particular party?

> > I guess there's some of that, but you got to make up your mind in life.

You got to align just even for pragmatic purposes.

So much is determined in the primary.

You know, I sort of wish you had primaries that weren't party defined and let people vote that would sort of lower the temperature and ease sort of some of the pain.

[Applause] It's good for me, too.

But I think people are unaffiliated sometimes they don't live and die politics every day.

You know, I, I read everything, but a lot of people are just going about their lives.

So perhaps it's not a great ideological statement.

I'm not aligning one way or the other.

They just don't bother.

[Gov.

Rell] It's true.

[Lucy Nalpathanchil] Do you think people are less engaged to want to serve in, whether it's local zoning boards or school boards?

When we think about civic engagement, there are a lot of students here as your Rell Center for Public Service encourages young people to be involved civically.

And so, you know, how do we get more people involved in their local communities to not be discouraged by the theatrics that they see from Washington?

> > Well, the best place to start is local.

You know, I tell interns this all the time, too, people that are people that want to run for office someday or just get involved in, quote, politics, go to your local candidates and volunteer if you want to volunteer for, you know, a campaign or something, people are always looking for help.

You know, of course, in the old days, we used to have to stuff envelopes and all that stuff.

Now we have machines that do everything that we, you know, used to have to sit around on the floor and stuff envelopes and put it out in the mail.

But people need to, you know, encourage, I guess, encourage your your self to go work on a campaign, go volunteer to do something.

And I think if they see other people doing it and are willing to participate, I think it'll make a big difference.

And I also think candidates need to make a reach out, if you will, be willing to ask a young person to come help out.

[Lucy Nalpathanchil] Mentorship, Governor Lamont.

> > I urge everybody, get in the game.

We need you badly.

You know, I'm having a little tougher time recruiting for some things, especially if they require, you know, maybe legislative approval or a lot of the slings and arrows you're going to get.

Some people say maybe not, probably heard in the school boards, they're getting pretty feisty.

That's local, but they're really feisty, smaller the issue, the bigger the fight is what some people say.

But, you know, there's a sort of profound loneliness out there coming out of COVID and maybe before that.

And sometimes we're all doing our own things.

And maybe that's a little... there's nothing like being part of something bigger than yourself, be part of a team and and public service is part of that.

And I just urge everybody, give it a try.

We need you.

I'm getting turned down.

Some people just say, I just don't want to do it.

It's just, you know, not worth the heat.

And I'm telling you, it's worth it.

> > Speaking of the heat, the Connecticut Council for Municipalities this time last year started a civility pledge asking local town officials to sign on to civility.

And we have seen some of these local meetings get heated.

I wanted to point to our neighbors in Massachusetts when we think about name calling, how there have been towns who have put forth policies where people need to be respectful, no slandering, no name calling.

And that actually was tossed out by the Massachusetts judicial court, saying that it's unconstitutional to require people to be civil.

What do think about that ruling and how that will play out when we see > > You don't have a law telling people to be civil, you don't have a law telling people to be nice, you lead by example, right.

That you start with your parents and your kids look up to you and they look at how you react to a difficult search and look how you react as husband and wife.

That's how you do it.

I don't need another policy or law.

> > I think sometimes, though, a policy put in place like that is it can be counterproductive, too.

I think that, you know, we look at it and say, why are you telling me to be civil, I already am.

It's not you I'm worried about.

It's other people.

And, you know, does it serve a purpose?

Perhaps.

But I think you're right.

It comes back to, you know, how you were brought up, how you behave, how you respond to that person who's yelling at you at a school board meeting or a COVID meeting if it's the governor standing there.

If they're disrespectful to you and they start calling you names in the middle of that meeting, what are you going to do?

I mean, are you going to stand there and say, shut up, I don't want to hear what you have to say?

Of course not.

You're the civil person and the rest of that audience is going to learn by your example.

That's how I want my governor.

> > Jodi thats what they want me to do.

> > That's what they want you to > > Get you angry.

They want you to push back.

They want you.

You just can't take that bait.

> > Exactly.

And your response to that is be civil and then the rest of the audience will see, that's the governor that I elected.

That's the person I want representing me.

That will go a long way better than any policy book you put out there.

> > Let's disagree on something so we can jazz things up here.

> > All right.

Well, let's see.

That budget that you said was bipartisan.

[Laughter] > > You know, we've been talking a lot about interpersonal relationships and how we talk to one another, but we're ignoring the fact that when we think about when you were in office and how now and now that you're governor and your second term, what is some of the motivations behind why people have gotten ugly and how easy it is to be ugly on social media?

And so that's something that we need to think about in terms of how that is encouraging people to come out of the woodwork to label.

So I wonder if you can talk about the role of social media.

When we think about polarization.

> > It's too easy to throw mud on social media.

You know, you're able to do things on social media.

You don't have the consequences of it, you know, Boy, I just don't let any...

I look at the comment section on social media during those campaigns.

It's just brutal.

And I think it's it opens the door to things that hopefully people would never do in person.

It's easy to do in social media, but unfortunately, that same anger in social media is permeating into the personal now.

> > I was thinking back to 2019, your office put out a statement and there were some online threats towards women lawmakers.

State Senator Cathy Osten, also Republican mayor in New Britain, Erin Stewart and you put out you had to put out a statement to condemn with these online threats.

Is that where we are today, where you need the governor need to, you know, slap someone's hand to say, okay, look, now you're not being respectful.

And then how much of an impact does that have?

Or is it about taking a stand?

Governor Lamont?

> > I'll tell you, when President Biden came the first time he came for daycare center in Hartford and there are a lot of young moms, a lot of kids, there are a lot of, you know, social workers there.

And there are angry protesters out there using, the F-bomb attacking, you know, Joe Biden and I stood up, you know, the next day say I was embarrassed for my state, embarrassed for whatever you think of Joe Biden, that's not who we are.

And that was soon thereafter, they said we were just yelling, let's go, Brandon.

But I think you do have to stand up.

You have to be clear about who you are and who we are as a state.

I'm so proud of this state.

I love this state.

And those are the real exceptions.

Generally, I think we've really carried through and a real contrast to what I see going on in a lot of other states right now.

> > I agree.

And I think the governor said it well.

You do have to stand up and to condemn actions, even if it's a voiceless person on Facebook or whatever it is that they post.

I honestly believe it's gone too far.

If you can stand behind this mask and you you're not accountable to anyone except yourself.

But if you're not accountable, you can say anything.

You can be rude if you want to, and many people are, then shame on them.

That's, you know, that's unfortunately playing into everybody that's on the negative side of everything.

And yes, if somebody is threatening you or threatening a legislator or something else, you have a right to stand up.

It is your personal being to do so.

It gets back to the question you asked earlier, Would you stand up if you were in a room with someone who is a bigot, someone who is doing a racist statement?

Sure.

You better.

You really better or you're not the person you should be.

So I give you a credit for going after them.

> > Do you think our democracy is in danger?

> > I'd say there's not a lot of room margin for error, but it's been that way for 100 years and I think at the end of the day is know our democracy is strong.

I think at the end of the day when we push to the extremes, maybe during McCarthyism or Jim Crow, that really screams people do stand up, we get back to the center.

I think we're getting back to the center now.

[Gov.

Rell] I believe it's right.

I think that, you know, it talks about that center I mentioned earlier.

There are extremes, but I think our democracy is strong.

We have weathered storms in the past and we will do so again.

Right now, we're we're in a storm, but we can see the light at the end of the tunnel, the good will, it's out there.

> > Governor Lamont, would you encourage your children to get into politics?

Yes, but then they probably wouldn't No, They've been they've been I, I didn't get into politics until I was a little bit older and my kids were, you know, senior in high school, college.

I just thought that was the right thing to do for my family.

And they got involved.

Some loved it.

Some went their own way.

Kids do their own thing.

I mean, you know, they and I you know, I think it's sort of pretty clear who we are.

And they, you know, they're going to go their own way.

But I encourage them.

I love them to do it.

I'd be passionate about it.

Id back them every step of the way.

But you know that I'll do that whatever they decide to do.

> > And we were talking about your grandchildren, Governor Rell.

> > You didn't ask me about my children.

> > We met, your son, the mayor.

> > Yeah, there are, there are children who love politics and then there are children who really have no use for it whatsoever.

I have both of them.

So and as far as grandchildren, whatever they want to do, I will support them 100%.

Would I encourage them?

I'd encourage them to do what they want to do and encourage them to go follow their heart, follow their own beliefs, and follow their passion.

Do it.

> > Earlier you mentioned that we're on a college campus again, University of Hartford, the Millard auditorium.

And we've seen in recent years, you know, some there is also studies being done that freedom of speech on college campuses, students and faculty don't feel comfortable at times bringing up controversial topics or feeling comfortable that they can talk about their beliefs.

And so that can be a real challenge when you think about a college environment and trying to be exposed to many different perspectives.

I wonder if you can reference that and talk a little bit about that issue.

Governor Lamont.

> > Is that true?

Are there variety of issues and things that you don't feel confident?

Bring it up here at the University of Hartford?

Is that.

> > Or at any university when youre looking at nationwide.

> > I don't know I let it rip.

It's just alien to me.

I bring up I'd say one of the thing humor is sort of helpful too, you know, you can be earnest and civil, but sometimes you can deflect with just a little bit of humor that takes it seriously.

I mean, one of the great politicians of all time was Franklin Roosevelt.

They were just... he was merciless with his enemies and his enemies were merciless with him.

And he... just heard them the other day goes my opponent's say grilled millionaire for breakfast.

Frankly, I prefer scrambled eggs and bacon.

You know, it's just a little tone to deflect from some of the anger that's out there.

But I hope in an academic environment like this, people stand up, respected, and I want the most outlandish things being able to be discussed.

That's what this is all about.

[Applause] > > I think, Lucy, where you were going with that is that we're a little bit we I say collectively, we're afraid to voice an opinion because somehow we have alienated someone, made an error in judgment that, you know, is not politically correct.

And we didn't realize that it wasn't.

And now we're in trouble for it.

That has to stop.

We do have to have freedom of speech to say what we want to say and be heard when we say it.

But at the same time, I think that right now you see teachers more in local schools than on a university campus.

But look, teachers that are afraid to touch a child, you know, used to be in kindergarten or first grade, this little kid would be crying and you'd hug them and say, everything's going to be okay.

Now, that teacher can't touch them.

You can't touch that child.

And why?

Because it's wrong.

You could be accused of doing something that's inappropriate.

We've gone too far.

We have to step back and look at the situation and say, use common sense for crying out loud.

If I want to voice my opinion on something, it's my opinion.

Don't belittle me and don't put me down because of it.

It's an opinion, people.

It's an opinion.

No.

> > You brought up teachers, so you know, I feel like I need to talk about how some teachers even afraid to bring up a certain book in a classroom.

When you look at the state of Florida even and the governor's policies there.

And so this is the environment that we're in where people feel vilified or they will get in trouble with the law for bringing up a book that many of us have read as children.

And do you think that needs to stop?

> > It does need to stop.

I mean, the thing of it is, is that it gets back to what I was just saying about a teacher hugging a child, making them comfortable because they're hurting.

A book, a library is supposed to be able to have a book in there that if you want to go check out that book, you can have that book.

The minute, say banned book I'm going to go find it somewhere and I'm going to read it.

And and, you know, the hell with what you have to say, you know, so but you're right.

You feel like you can't say that.

And that's unfortunate.

You can't voice an opinion on a book or at least even name the title of a book.

Where have we gone?

Where what kind of craziness is going on in this world?

> > You know, I started the conversation talking about how some would critique civility and do we really need civility?

We need people to stand up and vote certain people out of office.

That's how we're going to make change.

But when we think also about, you know, how we can make a difference in our local communities, I mean, where do we begin?

I think it's important again to here are leaders modeling behavior that we want to see in our local communities as well.

But again, you know, how do we get this conversation to happen locally where people feel comfortable again talking to their family members or to people in their community?

> > It's got to start somewhere.

And I think that, you know, any town board or commission, any mayor or first selectman, anyone, anybody can start that dialog in their town and bring people together and say, you know, what can we do to enhance the conversations that we need to have?

And there are always going to be people that leave me alone.

I don't have time for that.

But if you are persistent and try to encourage people, let's think of what we can do as a group, as a community.

How can we, you know, how can we help people to be better at whatever, you know, whatever we need to do in town?

I'm thinking about some of the towns and the events that they had just recently with the remembrance of 9/11.

When you bring people together for a common purpose, there's always good that comes out of it.

You can do more of that.

And I think as a town, as leaders, we can all do more of that.

It makes a difference.

> > The only thing I'd say is don't think this is a uniquely bad or angry time in America.

This is this is I'm afraid, a little bit of America and democracy is very messy.

I mean, you wouldn't believe the elatious fights they had back in the 1790s and the 1850s are caning the guy in the halls of Congress.

[Gov.

Rell] In the legislature in Hartford.

> > Is that what you guys did?

> > Well, we didn't use well actually Doc Gunther used a gun.

> > Oh okay.

> > But he didn't really I mean it was a, it was a, as he said, it was just supposed to be a, you know, for show only.

But he actually had it in the chamber in Senate chamber.

That was not a good time.

Trust me.

It was not.

> > But getting back to my original question, when I think about the people who've come out to this this conversation, they're not the problem.

Right?

Right.

How do you reach people who, again, are more interested in the rhetoric and they see opportunity in division.

> > Look them head on.

Yeah, you know, just don't pull any punches, but do it with a smile.

Just do it with a smile.

I think you're dead wrong, Lucy I think your suppositions are way ahead of the game, but I understand where you're coming from.

Let me tell you my point of view.

And that's not going to solve for world peace.

I get it.

But it beats the alternatives.

People are trying to get a rise out of you.

People are trying to make you angry, trying to bring you down to the gutter.

Don't fall for the bait.

> > Wondering when we approach you to have this conversation.

Why did you say yes, Governor Rell?

> > Because I couldn't him be here by himself.

You know.

> > It's so lonely, by myself.

[Laughter] > > I said yes, because, one, you're holding it here at the University of Hartford?

No.

And I am pleased to be here.

But I say that any time that we can talk about what we can do and how we can make our world a more civil place, where we can have people who are kinder to each other, who listen to each other, not just hear the words that are going out there.

But listen, why do you feel that way?

How come you did it that way?

When we can listen to that and encourage more people to do so, then I think we've made a difference.

And in public service, I did say I wouldn't run for office again per se, but public service is really something that I've always enjoyed and loved and loved being a part of.

And to me, being here tonight is part of public service.

> > You brought up asking how and not necessarily the why.

And that's actually something that Monica Guzman, who I referenced earlier, brings up in her book to get at the heart of how somebody comes to a belief to understand their values in their life, instead of always asking why, but asking how you came to that place.

Governor Lamont, why did you say yes to this conversation?

> > I don't know.

I like Jodi Rell for it to be a pretty easy conversation.

I was free tonight, actually.

> > He says that, you know.

It took a long time, > > but also that.

But also to disabuse people of the idea that everything I see on TV and all the anger and all the vitriol out there, do you think that is the reality of the political marketplace?

And hopefully Jodi and I can say it in our own humble way, that's the exception.

The rule is people are getting things done.

They're working together.

and I want people feeling good about what we're trying to do.

> > I asked you earlier if you thought democracy is in danger, but when we look at what a lot of research has shown, there is very little trust in our institutions anymore, whether it's in our media, in Congress, in the Supreme Court.

And so that is a problem when you think about how people want to be engaged in the process.

So I'm wonder if you can talk about that, that that lack of trust that we also are experiencing.

Governor Rell?

> > When I was in office, there were two things that I insisted on.

When people came to see me as a, Ill pick someone who came in to discuss a problem that they were having or an issue that was coming before the legislature for a vote, First you have to look me in the eye when you're talking to me, because I want to know that you are that I am listening.

I want you to know that I am listening to what you say.

So look at me when we're talking.

And the second thing was, don't ever lie to me.

If you lie to me, you are not welcome here.

And you mentioned that briefly just a minute ago.

People are dissatisfied with the media in one respect because they feel like they've been lied to.

And I'll say that in some things.

I'm hearing these lies and it's being repeated or I see it on television.

And then some another station will dispute what that has just been.

So they don't feel like they're getting the right answers.

They don't feel like they're being you're being honest all the time.

So then they start to pull away.

So if we are honest about how we're going to engage with people, we have to be able to say, I'm telling you the truth.

You may not like it, but this is how I feel and this is how I'm going to vote or this is how I'm going to react to that.

And I think people will appreciate the honesty and the directness of that.

[Lucy Nalpathanchil] Did you want to add to that, Governor Lamont?

> > I think we've always been skeptical of institutions in this country, but I just try and personalize it.

I those teachers and those teacher unions, and they don't care about education, but I love my teacher and what they're doing at school.

The health care system is a mess.

But I love my government doesn't get anything done.

You know, my job is this every day we're moving the ball forward, you know, a little bit Every day we're doing that by working together.

And I got to try and convince people it is making a difference.

Are we solving for world peace?

No.

Do we have a long way to go?

No.

But our institutions are holding.

I'd like to think we got people believing that the states doing a little bit better every day.

[Gov.

Rell] True.

> > Have you heard of the Disagree better initiative?

This is something that the Utah Governor Cox, who now I believe is chair of the National Governors Association, when we talk about the role that policymakers have in this conversation of civility, have you heard of that initiative and what do you think about it?

> > Yeah, Spencer Cox is a wonderful governor of Utah and usually the head of the NGA National Governors Association, we're going to do mental health or health care reform or something, he said, I want to do a disagreeing more amicably, disagreeing better, he calls it so, you know, next week I'm going to New Hampshire.

I'm to sit around and do a forum with a guy named Chris Sununu, the governor of New Hampshire there.

And as I implied before, you know, governors do pretty well with each other.

He comes out of the business world.

So it's a little bit easier for me as well.

And, you know, tell the kids up there in New Hampshire that just like we're trying to do right here, Jodi, that if you work together with people, you can move the ball and get things done.

> > Governor Rell.

> > I agree.

I mean, I just think that we we all need to be able to do a better job and in a lot of ways of just moving that ball forward.

And I think just by having a forum like this tonight and being able to talk and frankly, to be able to show that people do get along, we're different parties where, you know, we disagree on some things, but we do get along and we try to work together when it's important for the state to move that ball forward.

Gets back to your bipartisan budget, which I want to talk to you about later.

So.

> > Hey, 35 to 1, not bad.

> > It was that one that I though you should have gotten.

You know.

> > If he had voted for it, I wouldn't have supported it.

> > Last question.

Do you think women have a unique role in this conversation?

> > I think women have a wonderful and unique role.

You know, we tend to joke sometimes about when I became governor and when I became governor.

Our state was facing some real difficult times in fact, that there had been a number of cases in the state.

Some mayors had been arrested, some mayors went to jail, some people had been in trouble.

And I said not to diminish myself in any way, but what they really needed was a mother.

You know, mom stands up there and says, I'm going to make everything okay.

But I will tell you right now, things are going to change and you're going to do it my way and we're going to be better at it when we are done.

We're going to handle things in a different manner.

And by the way, I'm not taking any more, you know what from you.

So behave.

And, you know, after about the first month, we started to come together and everybody started to behave.

So we did very well.

And I think that, you know, we have that, women have that tendency to I don't want to say act as the mother in charge, but lay down the law and mean it.

And that's what we need.

And they don't take the B.S.

from anybody, move it forward.

> > So and we're the dads in this story watching a football game or something.

> > You know, it's funny you say that because, you know, there's a commercial on TV that says a place for mom.

I always talk back to it and say, what about dad?

You know, so no they're watching football.

[Laughter] > > Well, I think we're out of time.

It's been a pleasure to hear from former Governor M. Jodi Rell and our current governor, Ned Lamont.

I'm Lucy Nalpathanchil from Connecticut Public.

Thank you so much to the University of Hartford for hosting this conversation and to our audience, both watching at home and here as well.

Thank you for being here.