>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE SUPREME COURT DEALS A BLOW TO TRUMP, BLOCKING HIS RESTRICTIONS ON MAIL-IN BALLOTS.

WITH THE MIDTERMS CLOSING IN, WE GET THE DETAILS ABOUT WHY THIS RULING MATTERS.

> >> THEN, IS A NEW ALLIANCE OF THE RICH AND POWERFUL EMBRACING THE END OF THE WORLD?

AUTHORS NAOMI KLEIN AND ASTRA TAYLOR SAY YES.

THEY JOIN ME TO TALK ABOUT THEIR NEW BOOK, "END TIMES FASCISM," AND HOW WE CAN FIGHT IT.

> >> PLUS -- >> IF YOU LOOK AT HISTORICAL BOOM AND BUST CYCLES, WE'RE OVERDUE FOR A BIG RECESSION.

>> FROM SKY- HIGH OIL PRICES TO BOND MARKET SELL-OFFS, THE GLOBAL ECONOMY IS TAKING MAJOR SHOCKS.

ASSOCIATE EDITOR OF THE FINANCIAL TIMES RANA FOROOHAR TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE WARNING SIGNS OF WHAT'S TO COME.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

PRESIDENT TRUMP LASHES OUT AT THE SUPREME COURT, SAYING IT HAS REALLY LET OUR COUNTRY DOWN AFTER THE HIGH COURT BLOCKED THE PRESIDENT'S EFFORTS TO RESTRICT MAIL-IN BALLOTS LESS THAN TWO MONTHS BEFORE THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

IT'S A RULING THAT HAS POTENTIALLY SAVED A THIRD OF AMERICAN VOTERS FROM BEING DISENFRANCHISED, WITH NEW YORK STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL LETITIA JAMES SAYING SHE WAS TRULY RELIEVED.

CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES SAMUEL ALITO AND CLARENCE THOMAS WERE THE ONLY TWO TO BACK TRUMP'S PLAN.

THE PRESIDENT HAS REPEATEDLY MADE UNFOUNDED CLAIMS OF VOTER FRAUD ASSOCIATED WITH MAIL- IN BALLOTS.

SIGNING AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT SOUGHT TO CREATE LISTS OF U. S. CITIZENS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE AND INSTRUCTING THE U. S. POSTAL SERVICE TO ONLY DELIVER BALLOTS TO THOSE VERIFIED.

EXPERTS SAY THAT THIS IS A VIOLATION OF EXECUTIVE POWER AS THE PRESIDENT PUSHES TO RESHAPE AMERICAN ELECTIONS.

SO HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THIS RULING, AND HOW WILL IT HOLD IN THE FUTURE?

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA IS A STAFF WRITER FOR THE "ATLANTIC. "

HIS RECENT ARTICLE DETAILS THE GROWING INFLUENCE OF RIGHT-WING ACTIVISTS ON AMERICA'S LOCAL ELECTIONS, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW ALONGSIDE THE PRESIDENT OF THE BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE, MICHAEL WALDMAN.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

MICHAEL, LET ME START WITH YOU.

WHAT EXACTLY WAS THE PRESIDENT TRYING TO CHANGE ABOUT VOTING BY MAIL?

AND WHAT DOES THIS RULING MEAN FOR VOTERS WHO HAVE RECEIVED THEIR BALLOTS ALREADY?

>> FOR VOTERS, THE FACTS ARE VERY CLEAR.

THEY CAN VOTE AS THEY HAVE BEFORE.

THIS CONFIRMS THAT THEY CAN VOTE BY MAIL, IF THAT WAS THEIR PLAN, AND THAT'S THE WAY THEY DO IT.

AND AS YOU SAID, ONE IN THREE AMERICANS VOTES THAT WAY.

SO THERE WAS A LOT OF NOISE AND A LOT OF LEGAL DRAMA, BUT HAPPILY, FOR VOTERS, SORT OF THE COAST IS CLEAR.

THEY CAN CAST THEIR BALLOT WITH CONFIDENCE IN THAT WAY.

WHAT WAS BEING ATTEMPTED HERE WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY AND ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL EFFORT TO EXERT CONTROL OVER THE ELECTION SYSTEM BY THE WHITE HOUSE, BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

IN THIS CASE, THROUGH THE POSTAL SERVICE, DIRECTING THEM TO DO WHAT YOU DESCRIBED.

IT WAS UNWORKABLE AND ILLEGAL.

IT WAS ALSO UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

THE CONSTITUTION IS QUITE CLEAR.

STATES RUN ELECTIONS, INCLUDING MAIL VOTING.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CONGRESS HAS A ROLE IN PASSING LAWS, NATIONAL LAWS.

THE PRESIDENT HAS NO ROLE.

AND CERTAINLY THE POSTAL SERVICE ACTING AT THE PRESIDENT'S DIRECTION CANNOT SUDDENLY BE PUT IN CHARGE OF HOW ELECTIONS ARE RUN IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> JUST TO FOLLOW UP QUICKLY, MICHAEL, WITH YOU, WAS THE SUPREME COURT SAYING IN THIS RULING THAT THE EO ITSELF WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, OR WAS IT JUST NOT A TIMING APPLICABLE EXECUTIVE ORDER?

>> SO, YOU KNOW, THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION.

THIS IS --THIS IS ONE OF THOSE WHAT THEY CALL A SHADOW DOCKET RULING.

IT WAS ONLY ONE PARAGRAPH LONG.

NOBODY SIGNED THEIR NAME SO IT, ALTHOUGH AS YOU SAID JUSTICES ALITO AND THOMAS DISSENTED.

SO WE CAN ASSUME AT LEAST SIX OF THE OTHERS WENT ALONG WITH THIS.

IT DIDN'T GO INTO MUCH DETAIL, BUT IT DID SAY THAT ONE OF THE REASONS THAT IT UPHELD A LOWER COURT RULING, AND I SHOULD NOTE THAT THE BRAND CENTER, ALONG WITH OTHER VOTING RIGHTS GROUPS BROUGHT THE CASE IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT, THAT WHAT IT WAS DOING WAS ALLOWING THIS PREVIOUS RULING BY A TRIAL COURT TO STAND.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS SAID THE SUPREME COURT WAS THE GOVERNMENT, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS UNLIKELY TO PREVAIL ON THE MERITS.

SO IT CERTAINLY SEEMS AS IF THEY WERE OF THE VIEW, THE JUSTICES, THAT THIS WAS IN FACT ILLEGAL, THAT IT WASN'T JUST A MATTER OF TIMING.

KAVANAUGH, JUSTICE KAVANAUGH ISSUED A CONCURRENCE WHERE HE SAID WELL, MAYBE THE TIMING WAS THE PROBLEM.

BUT THE OTHERS SEEMED TO BE GOING CONSIDERABLY FURTHER, AND THAT'S ENCOURAGING.

>> TOLUSE, WE HEAR MICHAEL SAY THIS IS ENCOURAGING, THAT IT TELLS AMERICANS THAT THEY CAN VOTE CONFIDENTLY, THAT THEIR VOTE WILL BE COUNTED.

BUT AMERICAN DISTRUST OF THE ELECTION PROCESS ITSELF IS GROWING.

ACCORDING TO AN AP POLL, ONLY 34% OF AMERICANS OF U. S. ADULTS TRUST GOVERNMENT CERTIFICATIONS OF ELECTION RESULTS, QUOTE, A GREAT DEAL OR QUITE A BIT.

ACCORDING TO ANOTHER AP, ONLY 34% OF ADULTS GOVERNMENT CERTIFICATIONS.

IN 2024, THAT NUMBER WAS AT 40%.

SO HOW MUCH DAMAGE HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST FEW YEARS?

>> THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF DAMAGE DONE, IN PART BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT HAS BASICALLY SAID THAT OUR ELECTIONS ARE CROOKED.

OUR ELECTIONS ARE FRAUDULENT.

YOU CAN'T TRUST THE MAIL.

AND HE'S TRIED TO USE THE FORCE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO ENFORCE HIS VIEW OF ELECTIONS, WHICH IS ONE-DAY VOTING, NO EARLY VOTING, NO DROP BOXES, NO MAIL-IN BALLOTS.

HE SAID ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT METHODS, WHICH MANY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE USE ARE FRAUDULENT OR ARE TAINTED.

AND SO IT'S CAUSED A LOT OF CONFUSION.

AND THESE VARIOUS COURT CASES ALSO HAVE ADDED TO THE CONFUSION, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT ALLOWING THE PRESIDENT'S POLICIES TO GO IN PLACE.

A NUMBER OF PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY SAID I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE BY MAIL BECAUSE I'M WORRIED ABOUT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE POSTAL SERVICE.

I'M WORRIED THAT THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO USE SOME SORT OF EXECUTIVE POWER TO TRY TO END RUN THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF CONFUSION.

THERE IS A LOT OF DOUBT.

THERE IS A LOT OF QUESTIONING OF WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE'S VOTES WILL ACTUALLY COUNT, IN PART BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT HAS USED HIS BULLY PULPIT, WHICH IS THE BIGGEST BULLY PULPIT IN AMERICAN POLITICS TO UNDERMINE CONFIDENCE IN THE VOTE, EVEN LOCAL OFFICIALS ARE DOING WHAT THEY CAN TO MAKE SURE THIS VOTE TAKES PLACE WITHOUT ANY MALFEASANCE, THE PRESIDENT IS USING HIS POWER AS PRESIDENT, HIS POWER OF THE BULLY PULPIT TO UNDERMINE PEOPLE'S CONFIDENCE IN THEIR VOTING SYSTEM.

AND THAT REALLY MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO TRUST THAT THEIR VOTE WILL COUNT THE WAY IT SHOULD.

>> AND TOLUSE, THIS ISN'T ANECDOTAL, RIGHT?

THIS IS BASED ON YOUR OWN REPORTING THAT THIS DISTRUST OR CONFUSION IS ACTUALLY LEADING SOME AMERICAN VOTERS TO NOT VOTE AT ALL.

>> YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.

AND THIS DISTRUST ONCE WAS ON THE FRINGES OF THE AMERICAN POLITICAL SYSTEM, BUT NOW WE HAVE SEEN PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN THE PRESIDENT'S ELECTION FALSEHOODS MAKE THEIR WAY INTO POWER.

THEY'RE WORKING ON ELECTION BOARDS AT THE COUNTY LEVEL, AT THE SATE LEVEL, AND THEY'RE ABLE TO IMPLEMENT SOME OF THESE THINGS, EVEN THOUGH THE PRESIDENT AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ARE FINDING THEMSELVES BLOCKED BY THE COURTS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, YOU ARE SEEING STATE ELECTION OFFICIALS, COUNTY ELECTION OFFICIALS BEING ABLE TO IMPLEMENT SOME OF THESE THINGS, BECAUSE UNDER THE CONSTITUTION, ELECTIONS S ARE SUPPOSED TO BE RUN AT THE LOCAL AND STATE LEVEL.

THERE IS NOT MUCH OF A ROLE FOR THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, THE PRESIDENT TO ENACT HIS OWN VIEW OF HOW ELECTIONS SHOULD WORK.

BUT NOW THAT HE HAS ALLIES, ELECTION DENIERS THAT ARE WORKING AT THE STATE AND LOCAL LEVEL, HE IS STILL ABLE TO GET SOME OF HIS POLICIES THROUGH, EVEN THOUGH THE COURTS ARE BROCK BLOCKING IT.

THAT'S WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING THEY WON'T VOTE, SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING THEY DON'T TRUST THAT THEIR VOTE WILL COUNT.

THEY WORRY THAT EVEN IF THEY SHOW UP TO THE POLLS SOMETHING BAD COULD HAPPEN IN WHICH THEIR VOTES MIGHT NOT COUNT.

>> MICHAEL, I WANT TO PLAY AN EXCERPT FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP EARLIER THIS SUMMER.

HE ALLEGES HIS EFFORTS ARE TO MAKE SURE ELECTIONS ARE SAFER.

LET'S PLAY THAT SOUND.

>> EVERY AMERICAN DESERVES TO KNOW THAT WHEN THEY CAST THEIR VOTE, THAT VOTE WILL BE COUNTED ACCURATELY IN A SYSTEM, AND THAT IS TO MAKE THAT SYSTEM SECURE, ONE WHERE CHEATING AND INTERFERENCE ARE NOT JUST DIFFICULT, BUT VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE SYSTEM WE HAVE TODAY FALLS CATASTROPHICALLY SHORT OF THAT STANDARD.

>> SO MICHAEL, YOUR CENTER ACTUALLY STUDIES VOTER FRAUD.

DOES THE EVIDENCE SUPPORT THAT DESCRIPTION WE JUST HEARD FROM THE PRESIDENT?

AND ARE THERE ANY VULNERABILITIES TODAY?

>> OH, WHAT HE WAS SAYING WAS EMPHATICALLY NOT TRUE, EVEN THE COMMAS AND THE PERIODS.

AND IT'S EXTRAORDINARY TO HAVE A PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES SPOUTING NONSENSE LIKE THAT.

AMERICAN ELECTIONS ARE SECURE.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS ENCOURAGING RIGHT NOW IS IF YOU LOOK AT THE PRIMARIES THAT HAVE BEEN GOING ON, TURNOUT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN PRETTY HIGH.

AND RESULTS HAVE BEEN UNCONTESTED.

AND WHEN YOU ACTUALLY GET DOWN INTO THE COMMUNITIES, A LOT OF THIS SORT OF NONSENSE THAT YOU HEAR FROM THE PRESIDENT REALLY DOESN'T AFFECT HOW POLITICIANS ON EITHER SIDE ARE ADDRESSING HOW IT ALL WENT OR ADDRESSING VOTERS.

BUT STATES HAVE A MULTIPLICITY OF SYSTEMS IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT ONLY CITIZENS VOTE.

VOTER FRAUD IS REALLY RARE.

YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO BE STRUCK BY LIGHTNING IN THE UNITED STATES THAN TO COMMIT VOTER FRAUD.

AGAIN, THERE IS PLENTY OF REASON TO THINK THAT VOTERS CAN VOTE WITH CONFIDENCE.

I THINK IT'S A CHALLENGE FOR THOSE OF US WHO WANT TO HAVE A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION, FOR THE MEDIA, FOR ELECTION OFFICIALS WHO ARE TREMENDOUSLY TRUSTED EVEN NOW TO MAKE CLEAR TO PEOPLE THAT THEY SHOULD MAKE A PLAN TO VOTE.

THEY SHOULD VOTE EARLY IN PERSON IF THEY WANT.

IF THEY VOTE WITH MAIL BALLOT, THEY SHOULD VOTE WITH A DROP BOX.

IF THEY'RE GOING TO USE THE POSTAL SERVICE, THEY SHOULD VOTE EARLY BECAUSE OF THE PROBLEMS AND THE MESS OF THE POSTAL SERVICE, NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING INVOLVING THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER, OR CERTAINLY VOTE ON ELECTION DAY.

AND ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, THEIR VOTE WILL BE COUNTED.

YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE ELECTIONS FOR SEVERAL CYCLES NOW.

A LOT OF LIES SPEWED LIKE THIS.

AND THAT'S BECAUSE KIND OF A DUD, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

HE CLAIMED HE WAS GOING HAVE A BIG REVEAL AND DIDN'T.

BUT DESPITE ALL THE PRESSURE OVER RECENT YEARS, THE SYSTEM HELD PRETTY WELL.

IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY AND UNUSUAL AND UNPRECEDENTED THING, IN FACT, TO HAVE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES BE TRYING TO UNDERMINE THE ELECTIONS.

BUT NOW IT'S UP TO ELECTION OFFICIALS AND PEOPLE IN COMMUNITIES TO SORT OF DO THEIR THING.

AND THE ONLY WAY --TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO THIS, BUT HE IS ACTUALLY FAILING.

THE ONLY WAY HE'LL SUCCEED IS IF VOTERS STAY HOME.

>> WELL, TOLUSE, PRESIDENT TRUMP, AS WE PLAYED IN THE INTRODUCTION THERE, HAS CALLED THIS RULING BY THE SUPREME COURT A BAD DECISION AND A, QUOTE, HORRIBLE HIGHLY POLITICAL RULING.

HE WENT ON THE WRITE, "THE COURT'S UNABILITY AND UNWILLINGNESS TO DO THE RIGHT THING FOR OUR COUNTRY WILL GO DOWN IN A VERY NEGATIVE WAY IN THE ANNALS OF HISTORY.

YOU HAVE COVERED THIS PRESIDENT FOR YEARS NOW.

WHEN HE ATTACKS BOTH THE VOTING SYSTEMS AND THE JUDGES WHO UPHOLD IT, WHAT DOES THAT DO, HOW DOES THAT TRANSLATE TO HIS BASE OF HARD-CORE SUPPORTERS AND THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM?

>> WELL, IT'S A CLEAR SIGNAL THAT THE PRESIDENT IS TRYING TO DELEGITIMIZE THE SUPREME COURT, BASICALLY SAY THAT THEY ARE DOING THE BIDDING OF THOSE THAT ARE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.

HE SAID THAT THEIR RULE WILLING GO DOWN IN THE HISTORY OF THINGS THAT HAVE HARMED THE COUNTRY.

AND SO HE IS TAKING ACTIONS THAT WILL INSPIRE PEOPLE TO NOT BELIEVE THE COURT, TO WANT TO DELEGITIMIZE THE COURT, NOT WANT TO TRUST THE COURT'S RULINGS, AND POTENTIALLY EVEN TO LASH OUT AGAINST THE COURT IN VARIOUS WAYS.

SO THIS IS A PRESIDENT WHO HAS APPOINTED THREE MEMBERS OF THE SUPREME COURT, BUT NOW FEELS BETRAYED MAY BE THE COURT AND DOES NOT WANT TO FOLLOW ITS RULINGS.

>> AND TOLUSE, YOUR REPORT ALSO LAYS OUT ONLY IN TERMS OF THOSE WHO ARE SURROUNDING THE PRESIDENT IN HIS SECOND TERM, BUT YOU GIVE SPECIFICS IN LOCAL AND STATE ELECTIONS.

GEORGIA, OBVIOUSLY A HISTORY THERE FROM 2020.

WHAT DID YOU FIND TODAY?

>> IF YOU REMEMBER, GEORGIA IS A PLACE WHERE THE FBI CONDUCTED A RAID OF THE BIGGEST COUNTY OF ITS ELECTION INFRASTRUCTURE.

IT SHOWS HOW BOTH AT THE STATE LEVEL AND THE LOCAL LEVEL AND AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, THERE ARE ELECTION DENIERS WORKING TOGETHER TO UNDERMINE CONFIDENCE IN THE VOTE.

YOU HAVE TRUMP ALIGNED ELECTION DENIERS ON THE STATE ELECTION BOARD WHO ARE HAVE TAKEN CONTROL OF THAT BOARD IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS AND TRIED TO IMPLEMENT A NUMBER OF RESTRICTIONS ON VOTING, A NUMBER OF INVESTIGATIONS.

THEIR EFFORTS WERE CITED BY THE FBI WHEN THE FBI WENT IN AND RAIDED THE FULTON COUNTY ELECTION OFFICE.

SO THERE IS THIS APPARATUS WHERE YOU HAVE LOCAL STATE OFFICIALS THAT ARE WORKING WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO UNDERMINE CONFIDENCE, NOT TO TRY TO HELP MORE PEOPLE VOTE, BUT TO PUT FORWARD THIS IDEA THAT ELECTION FRAUD IS HAPPENING ON A BROAD SCALE, AND THAT WE NEED FEDERAL INTERVENTION TO STOP IT FROM HAPPENING.

SO GEORGIA IS A KEY PLACE WHERE ELECTION DENIERS ARE IN CHARGE OF THE STATE ELECTION BOARD.

THEY'RE IN CHARGE OF MANY OF THE COUNTY ELECTION BOARDS.

THEY HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS TO GAIN POWER WITHIN THE SYSTEM, AND NOW THEY ARE WORKING THAT POWER IN WAYS TO TRY TO UNDERMINE PEOPLE'S CONFIDENCE IN THE VOTE.

>> AND SOME OF THOSE EVEN REPUBLICANS WHO SUPPORTED THE PRESIDENT AND VOTED FOR THE PRESIDENT BUT STOOD AS GUARDRAILS, THEY'RE NOT ALWAYS IN PLACE ANYMORE TODAY.

AND MICHAEL, THE PRESIDENT REALLY SEEMS TO BE GOING AFTER WHAT HE CLAIMS ARE A NUMBER OF NONCITIZENS WHO WERE VOTING.

AND THE WHITE HOUSE IS ALSO WORKING TO GAIN ACCESS WE KNOW TO STATE ELECTION RECORDS AND VOTERS PERSONAL INFORMATION.

A WHISTLE-BLOWER REPORTS THAT THE DHS INVESTIGATORS MAY HAVE BROKEN STATE LAWS NOW IN PART OF THEIR EFFORT USING PERSONAL INFORMATION SUCH AS BIRTH DATES OR SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS TO LOOK UP VOTER RECORDS.

TELL OUR VIEWERS WHAT AUTHORITY TODAY DOES THE DHS ACTUALLY HAVE?

>> WELL, THEY DO NOT HAVE AUTHORITY.

AND YOU'RE RIGHT THAT THIS WHISTLE-BLOWER REPORT SAYS THAT MANY STATE LAWS WERE BROKEN AND THAT DHS AGENTS HAVE QUOTAS, BASICALLY, OF HOW MANY RECORDS THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO LOOK AT.

AND THEY'RE USING FAKE NAMES AND DATA AND OTHER WAYS TO TRY TO GET INTO THE STATE DATABASES TO GET THEIR RECORDS.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE VARIOUS AGENCIES OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DO NOT HAVE THE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO BE DEMANDING THESE RECORDS FROM STATES, TO BE DEMANDING THESE SENSITIVE OFTEN VOTER FILES.

AND CERTAINLY NOT TO BE USING THOSE TO TRY TO FORCE PURGES OF VOTING ROLLS, KICKING PEOPLE OFF THE ROLLS.

THERE HAVE BEEN 14 COURT RULINGS SO FAR THIS YEAR.

ALL OF THEM HAVE SAID THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND ITS EFFORTS TO GET THESE VOTER RECORDS HAS NO AUTHORITY TO DO IT.

WHY DO THEY WANT THIS STUFF?

WHY ARE THEY HOOVERING UP ALL THIS DATA?

IT'S GETTING REALLY CLOSE TO THE ELECTION.

WE HAVE THOUGHT THAT THEY WANTED IT TO EFFECTIVELY FORCE PURGES OF THE VOTER ROLLS.

IN OTHER WORDS, TO GET STATES TO KICK VOTERS ALL THE ROLLS, INCLUDING YOU WANT TO HAVE ACCURATE ROLLS, LISTS OF WHO'S ELIGIBLE.

BUT WHEN YOU DO THAT AND DO IT BADLY, YOU END UP KICKING A LOT OF ELIGIBLE PEOPLE OFF THE ROLLS.

AND IT MAY STILL BE THAT THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO.

BUT IT'S GETTING REALLY LATE.

AND FEDERAL LAW SAYS YOU CANNOT HAVE A BIG PURGE OF VOTER ROLES 90 DAYS BEFORE THE ELECTION.

SO WHAT WOULD THEY BE DOING THIS FOR?

I THINK THE POINT YOU MADE EARLIER, ALL OF THIS AT THIS POINT IS TO SOW DOUBT, TO SOW DISTRUST, TO FOSTER CONFUSION AMONG VOTERS, AND TO GIVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SAY OH, THIS WAS ALL RIGGED.

OH, THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE ELECTION.

IT IS INCREASINGLY DIFFICULT, THOUGH, TO SEE THAT TRUMP'S REALLY SERIOUS EFFORT TO TRY TO TAKE OVER THE ELECTION SYSTEM IS FAILING.

AND WHEN THE STORY OF THIS TWO-YEAR PERIOD IS WRITTEN, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE NOT THAT HE DIDN'T TRY, BUT THAT HE WAS BLOCKED.

>> AND IT ALSO SEEMS THAT HIS EFFORTS ARE NOT FINISHED YET, DESPITE THIS RULING FROM THE SUPREME COURT AND THEIR CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT MAY HAPPEN AFTER THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS AND WHAT MAY HAPPEN IN 2028 AS WELL.

MICHAEL, FINAL QUESTION TO YOU.

MICHAEL LUTTIG WHO IS A RETIRED CONSERVATIVE JURIST WARNS OF WHAT HE CALLS A BATTLE FOR AMERICA'S DEMOCRACY.

AND HE LAYS OUT A SCENARIO THAT ON JANUARY 3rd, REPUBLICAN HOUSE SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON MAY RULE THAT THE MIDTERM ELECTION WAS FRAUDULENT AND REFUSE TO SEEK DEMOCRATIC MEMBERS IT ACCUSES OF, QUOTE, STEALING THE ELECTION.

HOW REALISTIC DO YOU THINK THAT SCENARIO IS?

WHAT COULD STOP IT FROM HAPPENING?

>> YOU KNOW, I RESPECT JUDGE LUTTIG TREMENDOUSLY.

THAT IS VERY, VERY UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN, IN MY VIEW BECAUSE FOR STARTERS, THE DECISION ABOUT WHO WINS THESE ELECTIONS IS NOT IN THE FIRST INSTANCE MADE IN CONGRESS, BUT THIS THE CERTIFICATION OF ELECTIONS IN STATES AND COUNTIES WHERE THERE ARE STRONG LAWS TO MAKE SURE WHO THE VOTERS VOTED FOR WIND UP BEING IS THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SENT TO WASHINGTON.

THE CONGRESS HAS THE POWER TO SEAT ITS OWN MEMBERS.

BUT IT ISN'T UP TO MIKE JOHNSON.

IT'S UP TO THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.

MIKE JOHNSON HAS A TWO-SEAT WHAT JORDAN RIGHT NOW.

AND SO THAT WOULD JUST, TO GIVE YOU ONE REASON TO, YOU KNOW, BE CAUTIOUS, BUT ALSO NOT THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, THAT WOULD MEAN EVERY REPUBLICAN, INCLUDING ALL THE ONES WHO JUST LOST, WOULD HAVE TO GO ALONG WITH THIS.

>> YEAH.

>> AND THEN ON JANUARY 3rd, THERE ARE THE DEMOCRATS.

AND YOU WON UNDER THAT SCENARIO, SAY HAKEEM JEFFRIES, IF HE IS THE LEADER OF THE DEMOCRATS, THAT'S ALL VERY INTERESTING, BUT ACTUALLY, WE WON THE ELECTION.

I'M THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.

IT WOULD REQUIRE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF STUFF THAT IS VERY UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN.

AND MORE TO THE POINT, IT WOULD BE OUTLANDISH.

IT WOULD BE OUTRAGEOUS.

I HONESTLY THINK THAT IT SHOULD BE REALLY CLEAR.

WERE MIKE JOHNSON TO DO THAT, HE WOULD GO DOWN IN THE HISTORY BOOKS AS A VILLAIN.

AND I DON'T THINK HE'S GOING TO DO THAT.

BUT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THOSE PROTECTIONS ARE IN PLACE.

>> A CONSTITUTIONAL EXPERT.

SO WALKING INTO A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS, I DON'T KNOW THAT HE WOULD EVEN GO THAT FAR.

BUT THOSE ARE THE WARNINGS FROM MICHAEL LUTTIG.

MICHAEL WALDMAN, TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, THANK YOU.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU BOTH ON THE SHOW.

> >> WELL, NOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY IS ROLLING BACK KEY REGULATIONS IN THE CLEAN AIR ACT, ERASING LIMITS ON EMISSIONS FROM COAL AND GAS POWER PLANTS.

IT'S AN ASTOUNDING MOVE AFTER THE U. S. RECORDED ITS HOTTEST SUMMER EVER.

FROM A DISREGARD FOR THE CLIMATE CRISIS TO THEIST CENTENNIAL THREAT OF AI, IT'S EASY TO DESPAIR OVER OUR FUTURE.

BUT RATHER THAN FINDING SOLUTIONS, OUR NEXT GUESTS SAY A NEW FAR-RIGHT MOVEMENT IS EMERGING IN RESPONSE AND EMBRACING END TIMES FASCISM.

IN THEIR NEW BOOK, AUTHORS NAOMI KLEIN AND ASTRA TAYLOR ARGUE THAT AMERICA'S RICH AND POWERFUL ARE PREPARING FOR END OF THE WORLD, AN END THEY THEMSELVES ARE FRENETTECALLY ACCELERATING.

THEY'RE JOINING ME NOW FROM NEW YORK TO DISCUSS THEIR BOOK.

WELCOME BOTH OF YOU.

NAOMI, LET'S START WITH YOU.

AS I NOTED, YOU BOOK IS TITLED "END TIMES FASCISM. "

BRIEFLY, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

AND WHAT MAKES THE POLITICS YOU DESCRIBE IN THIS BOOK SPECIFICALLY FASCIST?

>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING US, BRIANA.

WE ARE DESCRIBING A PHENOMENON OF A TURN TO THE HARD RIGHT, WHICH WE ARE SEEING AROUND THE WORLD.

WE JUST SAW IT IN RECENT ELECTIONS IN GERMANY.

WE'RE SEEING HARD RIGHT PARTIES SOARING IN THE POLLS IN FRANCE.

AND THERE IS A HARD RIGHT GOVERNMENT IN THE UNITED STATES.

YOUR PREVIOUS GUESTS WERE TALKING ABOUT A WILLINGNESS TO OVERTHROW LONG HELD DEMOCRATIC NORMS.

SO WHAT MAKES THIS SPECIFIC AND WHY WE CALL IT END TIMES FASCISM IS IT SEEMS TO BE TAKING COLLAPSE FOR GRANTED AND FINDING WAYS TO BOTH PROFIT FROM COLLAPSE AND ALSO TO PROTECT THE IN GROUP.

SO THERE IS A FOCUS ON FORTRESSING, WHETHER BORDERS OR HOMES.

THERE ARE SEVERAL TIERS OF THE BUNKERING.

KIND OF A MASS MARKET VERSION AT THE BORDER, BUT THEN AN ELITE VERSION FOR THE VERY RICH, WHO AS WE KNOW ARE BUILDING LUXURY BUNKERS AROUND THE WORLD.

>> WELL, TO THAT POINT, ASTRA, YOU WRITE, QUOTE, THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD ARE PREPARING FOR THE END OF THE WORLD, AN END THEMSELVES THEY ARE ACCELERATING.

THAT WAS THE INTRODUCTION QUOTE WE HAD AS WELL.

YOU IDENTIFY TECH BILLIONAIRES, RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS AND ETHNO- NATIONALISTS.

WHAT IS THE STRONGEST EVIDENCE THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO FIND THAT THEY SHARE AN ACCEPTANCE OF CATASTROPHE RATHER THAN TRYING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE FOR THEIR OWN WEALTH AND THEIR OWN POWER?

>> YES, FASCISM IS ALWAYS AN ALLIANCE.

SO YOU JUST NAMED THREE MAIN GROUPS THAT WE SEE AS CORE TO THIS IDEOLOGY, WHICH IS NOT A MONOLITH, AND IT'S NOT DOMINANT ACROSS THE ENTIRE RIGHT, BUT IT DOES DESCRIBE SOME OF THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, BOTH IN POLITICS AND THE HOME OF CORPORATIONS.

I THINK JUST THIS WEEK LEADING UP TO THE PUBLICATION OF OUR BOOK, WE'VE SEEN A KIND OF ATTENTION OR MENTION OF APOCALYPSE IN THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

WE HAD VICE PRESIDENT J. D. VANCE TALKING ABOUT POSSIBLE USHERING IN THE END TIMES.

AND WE'VE HAD LEADING FIGURES FROM SILICON VALLEY WARNING THAT THEIR TECHNOLOGY MIGHT CAUSE MASS HUMAN EXTINCTION.

SO WE'RE SEEING A SENSE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ENTERING A VERY PERILOUS PERIOD IN HUMAN HISTORY, AND A SENSE AMONG THESE ELITES THAT THEY'RE WELCOMING THIS CHAOS, RIGHT.

AS NAOMI SAID, THEY'RE BUILDING BUNKERS.

THEIR SOLUTIONS ARE TO BUILD BORDERS AND WALLS RATHER THAN ADDRESSING THE ROOTS OF THE CRISIS.

IT'S A RESPONSE TO A VERY REAL CRISES, THE CLIMATE CHANGE.

INCREDIBLY CONCENTRATED WEALTH, WARS, AND ROGUE -- POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE WHICH IS COMPOUNDING THESE CRISES.

NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

AND SO THOSE MATERIAL CONDITIONS ARE CREATING A MORE DANGEROUS WORLD AND A UNIQUE MANIFESTATION OF FASCIST THREATS.

>> YOU ASKED WHY.

WHAT IS IT ABOUT IT THAT DESERVES TO BE CALLS FASCIST.

WHAT WE'RE ARGUING IS THAT ONCE YOU CAN NO LONGER DENY THE REALITY OF CLIMATE CHANGE, FOR INSTANCE, ALL THAT IS REALLY LEFT TO DENY IS THE HUMANITY OF YOUR FELLOW HUMANS.

IT REQUIRES --IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET AT THE ROOT CAUSES OF WHAT'S DRIVING THE CRISES, IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TRY AND SOLVE THEM AND IF INDEED, YOU'RE GOING ACTIVELY MAKE IT WORSE, DOING THINGS LIKE DEREGULATING CARBON AT THE EPA, THEN WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING HIT FIRST AND WORST?

AND IT'S NOT A SURPRISE NOR IS IT NEWS THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST VULNERABLE TO DISASTERS, TO SHOCKS ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE LEAST MONEY.

AND IN OUR VERY UNEQUAL WORLD, THAT OVERWHELMINGLY MEANS BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE.

SO WE ARE SEEING SUPREMACISTS AND FASCIST IDEAS SURGE AS A WAY TO RATIONALIZE ALLOWING PEOPLE TO DIE, TO DROWN, TO DIE ON THEIR LANDS, TO STARVE.

OF COURSE, WE'VE ALSO SEEN ATTACKS ON THE AID PROGRAMS THAT HELP THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, LIKE USAID, LED BY THE WEALTHIEST MAN IN THE WORLD, ELON MUSK WHEN HE WAS HEAD OF DOGE.

>> ASTRA, HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THE LATEST CONCERNS OVER AI AND SORT OF ITS DEVELOPMENT OUTPACING WHAT ITS OWN CREATORS CAN CONTROL, AND THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE THE HEADS OF THESE COMPANIES WHICH I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S IN THEIR HEARTS, BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT THEY LAID OUT AS THEIR VISION, IT WAS FOR AI TO MAKE IMPROVEMENTS IN HUMANITY AND HEALTH CARE, IN EDUCATION.

NOW THIS WEEK THEY'RE, HOWEVER, SAYING THAT WITHOUT SOME SORT OF CONTROLS, WITHOUT SLOWING IT DOWN THERE, IS A NOT ZERO PERCENT CHANCE OF SOMETHING CATASTROPHIC HAPPENING AND ASKING FOR SOME REGULATION OR GUIDANCE, OR AT LEAST UNANIMITY ON THIS ISSUE.

AND YOU HAVE AN ADMINISTRATION OR A PRESIDENT CALLING THIS A HOAX.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, THEY HAVE BEEN TELLING US THAT THE TOOLS THAT THEY'RE BUILDING ARE EITHER DEMONS OR GODS FOR A LONG TIME.

IT'S EITHER GOING BRING ABOUT PARADISE AND CURE CANCER AND SOLVE CLIMATE CHANGE, OR IT MIGHT DESTROY HUMANITY.

DARIO AMODEI FROM ANTHROPIC AND ELON MUSK HAVE SAID PERHAPS THERE IS A 20% OR 25% THAT THEIR INVENTIONS WILL CAUSE THE END OF HUMAN LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.

I DON'T THINK WE HAVE TO TAKE THEIR PREDICTIONS LITERALLY.

AGAIN, LIKE YOU SAID, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S IN THEIR HEARTS.

BUT IT'S CLEAR THAT THEY'RE BUILDING TOOLS THAT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND AND CAN'T CONTROL.

AND IT'S ALSO CLEAR THEY'RE WILLING TO RISK EVERYTHING ON THIS TECHNOLOGY AND ON THE PROFITS THEY THINK IT WILL AMASS AND THE POWER IT WILL AMASS AS WELL.

WE'RE QUITE ALARMED BOTH ABOUT THE POTENTIAL OF THIS TECHNOLOGY, BUT ALSO THE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN THE HERE AND NOW, LIKE THE IMMENSE CARBON FOOTPRINT OF THESE TOOLS.

THEY ARE BRINGING BACK COAL PLANTS AND DEMANDING ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF ELECTRICITY, OFTEN USING VERY DIRTY METHANE GAS, NATURAL GAS TURBINES TO POWER THESE DATA CENTERS.

AND THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF HARMS WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO.

WE ALSO NEED TO LOOK AT WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND LESS WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.

SO NOW SOMETHING LIKE SAM ALTMAN IS SAYING OH, WE'RE ON TEAM HUMAN, DON'T WORRY.

IT'S A VERY INTERESTING MOMENT WHEN YOU TO ASSURE PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE ON THE SIDE OF HUMANITY.

BUT THEY'RE ALSO LOBBYING AGGRESSIVELY TO DEREGULATE.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SUPER PACS LIKE LEADING THE FUTURE LIKE GREG BROCKMAN FROM OPENAI IS A CORE PLAYER IN, AND THEY'RE ACTIVELY LOBBYING AGAINST THE REGULATIONS THAT THEY SAY THAT THEY NEED.

SO WE NEED TO BE VERY SKEPTICAL ABOUT WHAT THESE FOLKS ARE SAYING AND LOOK AT WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND WHAT KIND OF POLITICS THEY'RE ACTUALLY SPENDING REAL MONEY ON.

>> NAOMI --YEAH, SORRY.

>> GO AHEAD.

>> I WAS JUST GOING SAY THAT OUR BOOK DOES HAVE SOMETHING OF A SCARY TITLE.

BUT THE SUBTITLE "AND THE FIGHT FOR THE LIVING WORLD. "

AND AS ASTRA AND I -- SORRY.

AS ASTRA AND I WERE WRITING THE BOOK, WE STARTED TO SEE THIS SURGE OF RESISTANCE TO THE AI ROLL-OUT, CALLED THE DATA CENTER BACKLASH, BUT IT'S REALLY NOT JUST A NATIONAL MOVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT A GLOBAL MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER IN THEIR COMMUNITIES.

AND NOT JUST SAYING WE DON'T WANT THIS NOISY, POLLUTING DATA CENTER IN OUR BACKYARD, THOUGH THEY DON'T WANT THAT, BUT REALLY ASKING CORE QUESTIONS REALLY DO WE NEED THIS TECHNOLOGY TO BE OUR TEACHERS, OUR DOCTORS, OUR FRIENDS.

AND WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN TO BE ON TEAM HUMAN?

AND HOW DO WE WANT --HOW CAN WE LEAD MORE HUMAN LIVES AND HOW CAN WE ALSO PROTECT THE NATURAL WORLD.

WE'VE SEEN UPRISINGS AGAINST EXTREME WEALTH EVERYWHERE FROM VENICE, WHEN JEFF BEZOS STAGED HIS EXTRAVAGANT WEDDING, TO ALBANIA AND THE FLAMINGO REVOLUTION RIGHT NOW.

SO THERE REALLY IS AN UPRISING OF PEOPLE.

WE CALL IT A FIGHT FOR THE LIVING WORLD.

THIS IS THE TRUE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT THAT WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR.

AND IT'S BEEN SPREADING SO QUICKLY THAT WE HAD TO RACE TO KEEP UP.

SO THIS ENDED UP BECOMING ACTUALLY QUITE A HOPEFUL RESEARCH PROCESS.

I THINK THE ANTIBODIES ARE STARTING TO KICK IN.

>> YEAH, YOU OFFER A YIDDISH WORD, BUILDING A SHARED FUTURE, WHERE WE LIVE.

ASTRA, YOU WANTED THIS BOOK OUT BEFORE THE MIDTERMS.

WHO WERE YOU TRYING TO PERSUADE TO YOUR ARGUMENT IN SOME OF THE CONCLUSIONS THAT YOU'VE DRAWN IN RESEARCHING THIS BOOK?

AS YOU KNOW, THE TOP ISSUES FOR VOTERS, THE ECONOMY, SECURITY, AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT OTHER COUNTRIES, LET'S SAY EVEN HUNGARY, THEY DID ELECT A CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT THOUGH ONE THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM THE FORMER BECAUSE IN ADDITION TO THE ECONOMY, CORRUPTION WAS A BIG ISSUE.

SO HOW DOES YOUR ARGUMENT FACTOR IN TO WHAT'S TOP OF MIND FOR VOTERS IN AMERICA TODAY?

>> WELL, ONE THING WE'RE TRYING TO TELL PEOPLE IS BELIEVE YOUR EYES AND EARS WHEN PEOPLE TELL YOU WHO THEY ARE.

WHEN PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT THEY'RE WILLING TO RISK THE APOCALYPSE TO TAKE EVERYBODY'S JOBS OR TO LET IT RIP AND BURN ALL OF THE CARBON, WE SHOULD TAKE SERIOUSLY WHAT AN ENORMOUS EXISTENTIAL THREAT THAT IS.

WE ALSO THINK THAT YOU MENTIONED THE ISSUE OF AFFORDABILITY AND UNITY.

THOSE ARE ISSUES IN THIS MOMENT.

THOSE ARE ISSUES THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS REALLY CARE ABOUT AND WANT ACTION ON, AND THEY WOULD HELP ADDRESS, AGAIN, THOSE ROOT CAUSES THAT CREATE THE CONDITIONS THAT ALLOW FASCISM TO FLOURISH, THAT MAKE PEOPLE FEEL INSECURE AND MAYBE LOOK FOR STRONG MANSLAUGHTER, MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO BLAMING SCAPEGOATS.

WE THINK THIS ELECTION IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL AND SO MUCH IS ON THE LINE, AND THAT'S WHY WE WANTED TO GET THIS BOOK OUT.

AS NAOMI SAID, WE'RE IN A FIGHT MORE MORE THAN LIVABLE DEMOCRACY.

IT REALLY IS A FIGHT FOR A LIVABLE PLANET IN THE FUTURE FOR ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T HERE YET.

>> NAOMI, I DO WANT TO END ON READING A PASSAGE FROM THE BOOK.

HERE, WE'LL SHARE IT WITH OUR VIEWERS.

"TO EXPERIENCE AWE IS TO DISSOLVE INTO THE SWIRL OF THE UNIVERSE, TO FEEL SMALL IN THE BEST WAY.

THIS SENSE OF INTERCONNECTION IS ALSO WHY WE GRIEVE WHEN WE WITNESS STRANGERS SUFFERING AND FEEL THE GREAT SORROW OF EXTINCTION.

THE FACT THAT THIS CAPACITY SEEMS TO BE MISSING FROM THE MEN WHO HOLD OUR COLLECTIVE FATE IN THEIR HANDS IS A PERSONAL LOSS FOR THEM AND AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS FOR THE REST OF US. "

HOW DOES THAT CONNECT TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE THAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING, BOTH IN THIS INTERVIEW AND IN THE BOOK?

>> WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR READING THAT PASSAGE.

IT'S REALLY PANT TO US, BECAUSE WE WERE SO STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT THE THROUGH-LINE, WHETHER WE WERE LOOKING AT RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS WHO WANTED TO HASTEN THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH, EVEN AT THE PRICE OF CAUSING WORLD WAR III, OR WHETHER IT IS THE ROCKET SHIPS HEADED FOR SUPPOSEDLY MARS SO THAT HUMANS CAN BECOME INTERPLANETARY, NEVER MIND THE COST TO OUR WORLD.

THERE WAS JUST THIS SORT OF EXCITEMENT TO LEAVE THIS PLACE, TO GET OUT OF HERE, THAT THE REAL EXCITEMENT, THE REAL JOY IS BEYOND HERE.

AND WE DON'T THINK MOST PEOPLE FEEL THAT WAY.

I THINK MOST PEOPLE ACTUALLY SEE THE BEAUTY AND THE PRECIOUSNESS AND THE SINGULAR NATURE OF OUR ONE AND ONLY WORLD, OF THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES AND ALL OF THEIR WONDERFUL DIVERSITY, WHICH IS AN EXTREMELY NOT JUST ANTI-FASCIST IDEA, BUT THE ANTITHESIS OF FASCISM, BECAUSE FASCISTS WANT SAMENESS, ORDER, STRAIGHT LINES.

NOT THAT WONDERFUL DIVERSITY OF THE LIVING WORLD.

SO WE HOPE TO REALLY BE PART OF THIS AWAKENING OF APPRECIATING HERE BOTH IN THE SENSE OF OUR COMMUNITY, OUR LIVING BODIES, OUR HUMAN CONNECTIONS, AND ALSO OUR PLANET.

>> IT IS YOUR WAY OF ENDING ON A POSITIVE NOTE.

SO WE'LL LEAVELY.

THERE.

>> IT'S ALL WE'VE GOT.

>> EMBRACING WHAT WE HAVE.

OUR LIVES TODAY.

NAOMI KLEIN, ASTRA TAYLOR, AUTHORS OF "END TIMES FASCISM. "

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> OIL PRICES IN THE U. S. ARE AT THEIR HIGHEST LEVEL SINCE JULY.

RECENTLY SURPASSING $100 A BARREL WHILE GAS AT THE PUMP HAS REACHED AN AVERAGE PRICE OF $4.

33 PER GALLON.

AND WHILE THE U. S. WAR WITH IRAN CONTINUES TO CHOKE KEY SHIPPING ROUTES, IT'S NOT JUST AMERICANS FEELING THE PINCH.

THE FALLOUT IS RIPPLING THROUGH THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

SO WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON?

AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK "SEA CHANGE: AMERICA'S NEW GREAT GAME AND THE ARCTIC CIRCLE," RANA FOROOHAR JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS WHETHER WE COULD BE HEADING TOWARDS A RECESSION, AND WHY AN AI BUBBLE MIGHT BE MAKING THINGS WORSE.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA, AND RANA FOROOHAR, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT'S ALREADY BEEN A TUMULTUOUS WEEK SO FAR IN THE ECONOMY.

LET'S START WITH BOND PRICES, HITTING 5% WITH A TEN-YEAR TREASURIES.

WHY IS THAT HAPPENING?

AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME?

>> WELL, IT'S A GREAT QUESTION, WALTER.

5% IS THE AMOUNT THAT STARTS TO GET INVESTORS WORRIED.

IT MEANS THAT THE COST OF DEBT IS RISING.

THAT'S BAD NOT JUST FOR THE NATION'S ECONOMY, BUT FOR PEOPLE'S PERSONAL FINANCES.

WHEN THOSE RATES START TO RISE, YOU KNOW, YOUR HOME LOAN GOES UP.

YOUR CAR LOAN GOES UP.

THE COST OF ANY KIND OF DEBT THAT YOU MIGHT BE HOLDING GETS MORE EXPENSIVE.

THAT'S WHY THE PRESIDENT AND FED CHAIR KEVIN WARSH ARE SO CONCERNED ABOUT THIS.

THERE IS A LOT OF WORRY THAT THERE COULD BE A MARKET REACTION.

YOU'VE ALREADY SEEN STOCKS VERY VOLATILE IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS, BUT FALLING OFF THE BACK OF THIS NEWS.

AND THE BIG WORRY IS THAT IF DEBT IS PERCEIVED AS BEING TOO HIGH AND WITH PUBLIC FINANCES THE WAY THEY ARE, THERE COULD BE A REAL MARKET CORRECTION, LASTING MARKET CORRECTION THAT WOULD BE A SERIOUS EVENT.

>> IT'S A 20-YEAR HIGH, THESE YIELDS.

AND IT DOES MEAN EVEN THINGS LIKE MORTGAGES, THE AFFORDABILITY OF PEOPLE TO GET HOMES, IS THAT GOING TO BE HIT?

>> IT IS.

AND IT'S COMING AT A TIME WHEN, AS YOU KNOW, HOME AFFORDABILITY HAS ALREADY BEEN AN ISSUE.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE CANNOT AFFORD HOMES IN THE PLACES WHERE THERE ARE JOBS.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE KIND OF TOP 12 MARKETS IN THE U. S. , HOME PRICES WERE ALREADY SKY-HIGH.

AND THEN WHEN YOU ADD TO THAT, A HIGHER LOAN RATE, THAT MAKES IT EVEN LESS AFFORDABLE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

NOW EVENTUALLY, GOOD NEWS/BAD NEWS HERE, IF RATES GET HIGH ENOUGH, THEN HOME PRICES START TO FALL BECAUSE THERE AREN'T AS MANY BUYERS.

BUT THAT WOULD ALSO SIGNIFY A MAJOR DOWNTURN, WHICH WOULD HAVE ITS OWN IMPACT ON THE LARGER ECONOMY.

>> AND YOU'D ALSO HAVE A COST OF BORROWING FOR THE FEDERAL DEBT TO BE HIGHER IN THE LONG-TERM.

AND THIS IS ADDING --IS THIS ALL BEING CAUSED BY THE HUGE DEFICITS AND DEBT WE HAVE?

AND IT'S GOING MAKE IT WORSE?

>> YEAH, I WOULD SAY THERE ARE THREE REASONS WHY WE ARE SEEING THESE HIGHER YIELDS.

THE FIRST WOULD BE THE WAR IN IRAN, THE INFLATION THAT'S COME OFF THE BACK OF THAT, OIL PRICES, A SENSE THAT THIS PRESIDENT IS CREATING A LOT OF GEOPOLITICAL TURMOIL THAT COMES AT A COST, FRANKLY.

THE SECOND REASON, IS AS YOU POINT OUT THE FACT THAT THE FEDERAL DEBT LEVELS ARE HIGHER THAN THEY HAVE BEEN, AND THEY'RE GETTING HIGHER.

AND THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ANY SERIOUS CONVERSATION ABOUT CUTTING THEM.

EVENTUALLY, WHEN PUBLIC DEBT BECOMES TOO HIGH, INVESTORS SAY GOSH, THIS IS RISKY.

I WANT TO BE PAID A HIGHER PREMIUM FOR LENDING TO THIS COUNTRY.

AND THEN THE THIRD ISSUE IS THE AI BUBBLE.

AND I SAY BUBBLE SOMEWHAT LIGHTLY.

I DO THINK THAT THERE WILL BE A CORRECTION.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF BORROWING, A LOT OF BOND ISSUANCE ON THE PART OF AI COMPANIES.

AI IS A REAL THING.

IT WILL OVER TIME CREATE JOBS AND PRODUCTIVITY.

BUT IN THE SHORT-TERM, THERE IS A LOT OF DEBT AND LEVERAGE OUT THERE.

ALL OF IT MAKES RATES GO UP IMPLEMENT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT A LOT OF DEBT AND LEVERAGE, THERE IS $2 TRILLION OF DEFICIT THIS YEAR, WHICH IS HUGE COMPARED TO NORMAL TIMES.

I CAN REMEMBER, ESPECIALLY WHEN REPUBLICANS WERE VERY MUCH AGAINST DEFICITS, WHY HAVE WE GIVEN UP ON TRYING TO STOP DEFICITS?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT IS SUCH A GREAT QUESTION, WALTER.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

REPUBLICANS OFTEN TALK ABOUT CUTTING DEBT AND DEFICITS, BUT TO BE HONEST, THE WALK IS OFTEN TO LOWER TAXES AND NOT END UP CUTTING DEFICITS BECAUSE THERE'S LESS MONEY COMING INTO THE COFFERS.

RIGHT NOW, THOUGH, WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS DOING WITH THE WAR IN IRAN, TRADE AND TARIFF ISSUES, JUST A GENERAL SENSE OF INSTABILITY CREATES KIND OF A PERFECT STORM.

THERE IS A CONCERN THAT THE DOLLAR IS NOT AS SAFE AS IT USED TO BE.

THAT MAKES RATES GO UP.

WHEN YOU ADD THE SENSE THAT THERE IS NO CONVERSATION ABOUT CURBING PUBLIC BUDGETS ON EITHER SIDE OF THE AISLE MAKES FOREIGN INVESTORS VERY WORRIED.

AND YOU CAN SEE EVERY TIME THERE IS A NEW ISSUANCE OF TREASURY BILLS, WHICH IS HOW AMERICA GETS MONEY.

WE ISSUE TREASURY BILLS.

PEOPLE BUY THEM, THERE ARE FEWER AND FEWER FOREIGN BUYERS COMING INTO THOSE AUCTIONS.

THAT SAYS THE REST OF THE WORLD IS WORRIED ABOUT OUR DEBT AND DEFICIT PICTURE.

>> WELL, WHEN IT COMES TO AFFORDABILITY, THE OTHER THING THAT YOU'VE MENTIONED BRIEFLY WAS GAS PRICE.

I MEAN, IT'S $4.

30 AT THE PUMP FOR REGULAR GAS.

AND I THINK EVEN WORSE, DIESEL HAS GONE WAY UP TO $6.

30, WHICH MEANS EVERYTHING BEING BROUGHT TO YOUR MARKETS AND ALL OF OUR GOODS AND SERVICES, ALL OF OUR GOODS ARE GOING TO COST A LOT MORE.

TELL ME WHAT THAT'S GOING TO DO TO INFLATION AND HOW THAT PLAYS IN.

>> WELL, OIL AND FOOD ARE REALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS WHEN IT COMES TO INFLATION.

FOR STARTERS, IF YOU THINK ABOUT GAS PRICES, AS YOU MENTIONED, WHAT IS THE ONE NUMBER THAT MOST AMERICANS SEE EVERY DAY?

IT'S THE PRICE AT THE PUMP.

>> $4.

30.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> A SHOCK.

>> THAT IS -- THAT IS ABOUT THE MOST BROAD-BASED NATIONAL METRIC OF GOSH, INFLATION IS RISING.

I'M NERVOUS.

IT'S COSTING MORE TO NOT JUST FILL MY CAR, BUT FUEL MY HOME.

AND THEN AS YOU MENTIONED, THE ENERGY FOR LOGISTICS, FOR TRANSPORTING EVERYTHING.

THE ENERGY TO PUT --FOR FERTILIZER, TO GROW CROPS.

OIL IS AT THE HEART OF THE ECONOMY.

AND SO IT'S VERY BAD ECONOMICALLY.

IT'S VERY BAD POLITICALLY, FRANKLY, THERE THE RUN UP TO THE MIDTERMS FOR REPUBLICANS AND FOR THE PRESIDENT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ASSOCIATE THE ACTIONS OF THE LAST FEW MONTHS WITH RISING OIL PRICES.

>> WELL, OIL IS NOW MORE THAN $100 A BARREL THIS WEEK.

BUT I'VE GOT A SORT OF COUNTERINTUITIVE QUESTION.

WHY IS IT SO LOW?

WITH THE TWO DIFFERENT STRAITS BEING HIT, THE PIPELINES AND SAUDI ARABIA, PEOPLE A FEW MONTHS AGO SAID IT COULD HIT 150, 200.

>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I'M SO PLEASED YOU ASKED THAT.

SOME PEOPLE IN MY WONKY INVESTMENT WORLD HAVE EVEN PREDICTED $300, $400 BARREL OIL.

FOR SURE IT COULD GO HIGHER.

THERE ARE STRATEGIC PETROLEUM RESERVES.

RY SAY THE AMERICAN STRATEGIC PETROLEUM RESERVES ARE AT THEIR LOWEST LEVEL IN SOME TIME.

THE CHINESE HAVE BEEN HOARDING OIL.

THERE ARE A LOT OF COUNTRIES SAYING GOSH, WE NEED TO KEEP MORE ON HAND.

AND THAT GOES TO A LARGER ISSUE, WHICH IS ALSO AFFECTING INFLATION.

SINCE COVID, SINCE THE WAR IN UKRAINE, SINCE IRAN, THERE IS A SENSE THAT THERE IS A GEOPOLITICAL ISSUE COMING EVERY YEAR, EVERY TWO YEARS.

AND COUNTRIES ARE MOVING MUCH MORE INTO A DEFENSIVE POSTURE.

THEY'RE SAYING WE NEED TO HOLD MORE SUPPLY ON OUR --JUST IN RESERVES.

I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THAT NOT JUST WITH FUEL, BUT POSSIBLY EVEN WITH FOOD, WITH GRAIN, WITH THINGS LIKE THAT GOING FORWARD.

ALL OF THAT CONTRIBUTES TO INFLATION.

BUT IT ALSO CREATES BUFFERS THAT MAY BE ONE OF THE REASONS THAT YOU'RE NOT SEEING THE KIND OF SPIKE YOU TALKED ABOUT.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT THE STOCK MARKET?

IT DOESN'T -- I MEAN, IT'S BEEN VOLATILE RECENTLY.

BUT WHY HASN'T IT GONE DOWN MORE, GIVEN ALL THE DIRE THINGS YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT?

>> YOU KNOW, THE WALL STREET MAIN STREET DIVIDE, IT'S THE ENDLESS QUESTION.

THE SIMPLEST ANSWER IS THAT CORPORATE PROFITS ARE STILL HIGH.

AND IN SOME WAYS, YOU COULD SAY THAT THE STOCK MARKET AND ASSET PRICES ARE SIMPLY A MEASURE OF CORPORATE PROFITS.

IF INVESTORS BELIEVE THAT COMPANIES WILL BE ABLE THE STAY IN THE BLACK AND KEEP MAKING MONEY, THEN STOCK PRICES WILL KEEP GOING UP.

NOW AT SOME POINT, THAT SENSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE ASSET MARKET STARTS TO DOVETAIL WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE REAL WORLD.

AND THAT 5%, GOING BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONVERSATION, THAT 5% RATE IS THE BIG FLASHING SIGN THAT MARKETS ARE STARTING TO SAY HMM, WE DON'T LIKE THE FUNDAMENTALS, EVEN THOUGH CORPORATE PROFITS ARE HIGH.

AND THE BIG QUESTION IS WHEN THOSE TWO THINGS COLLIDE AND WHAT HAPPENS.

>> AND IF THOSE COLLISIONS HAPPEN, IS THERE A CHANCE WE COULD GO INTO A RECESSION AND MAYBE EVEN A GLOBAL RECESSION SINCE THIS HAS S HAPPENING ALL OVER?

>> I WOULD SAY 100% YES.

AND I DON'T SAY THAT TO BE FEARMONGERING.

IT'S REALLY A HISTORICAL NORM.

I MEAN, WE ARE OVERDUE, FRANKLY.

IF YOU LOOK AT HISTORICAL BOOM AND BUST CYCLES, WE'RE OVERDUE FOR A BIG RECESSION.

YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD A FEW INSTANCES, IN COVID, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE YOU SAW A BRIEF DOWNTURN AND THE MARKETS CAME BACK UP.

THAT WAS BECAUSE OF A LOT OF GOVERNMENT SPENDING.

WELL DID COMING OUT OF COVID HAVE THE STRONGEST RECOVERY.

BUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CAME IN AND ADDED GEOPOLITICAL CONFLICT, ADDED THE TARIFF AND TRADE WARS, ADDED IRAN.

SO GIVEN THE POSITION THAT WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW GIO POLITICALLY, AND GIVEN HOW TIGHT THE ROOM FOR MANEUVER IS THAT THE FED HAS NOW, IT'S NOT WHAT IT WAS 5, 10, 20 YEARS AGO, I THINK A GLOBAL SLOWDOWN IS PROBABLY IN THE CARDS AT SOME POINT.

>> THE OTHER BIG NEWS, AND ESPECIALLY IN THE PAST FOUR OR FIVE DAYS SINCE THIS WEEKEND IS THE FEAR THAT AI GETS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL.

BEFORE WE TALK ABOUT AI AND HOW IT MIGHT AFFECT THE JOB MARKET, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS WHEN SUDDENLY THE BIG AI COMPANIES THAT ARE DRIVING MOST OF THE INVESTMENT SPENDING RIGHT NOW ARE SAYING WE'VE GOT TO PAUSE FOR A SECOND MAYBE?

>> IT'S A HUGE ISSUE.

BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S REALLY DRIVING THE U. S. STOCK MARKET, IT'S A HANDFUL OF COMPANIES.

IT'S BEEN THAT WAY FOR SOME TIME.

THE MARKET IS MORE CONCENTRATED THAN IT'S EVER BEEN IN TECH AND IN AI SPECIFICALLY.

OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, THE ENTIRE NET SPENDING AND INVESTMENT OF CORPORATE AMERICA HAS BEEN INTO AI.

AND SO AI IS THE MARKET STORY.

AND IF THERE IS A RIPPLE, A BUMP, YOU KNOW, A DOWNTURN IN SOME OF THESE COMPANIES, IT WILL 100% HAVE A BROADER MARKET EFFECT.

>> BUT YOU MENTIONED THE WORD "BUBBLE," WHICH IS A FRIGHTENING WORD ALREADY.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS A BUBBLE IN AI?

>> I DO.

I'VE THOUGHT THERE WAS FOR SOME TIME.

LET ME CAVEAT THAT, BECAUSE, AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO BE FEAR MONGERING.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT A BIG WHAT THEY CALL GENERAL PURPOSE TECHNOLOGY, SOMETHING THAT IS GOING CHANGE OUR WORLD OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL DECADES, NEXT 100 YEARS, SOMETHING LIKE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, THAT'S WHAT MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE AI IS.

SO OVER THE LONG-TERM, IT IS GOING TO NET CREATE JOBS.

IT IS GOING TO INCREASE PRODUCTIVITY.

BUT THAT'S THE LONG-TERM.

WHAT TENDS TO HAPPEN AT THE BEGINNING OF A BIG INVESTMENT CYCLE LIKE WE'RE SEEING IN AI, LIKE WE SAW IN THE REAL ROADS, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU GET A LOT OF MONEY FLOWING INTO THE SECTOR.

YOU GET A LOT OF SPECULATION, AND THEN EVENTUALLY THE MARKETS CORRECT, SOMETIMES IN A BIG WAY, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THE CHAFE GETS WEEDED OUT.

YOU GET THE GOOD BETS AND THE BAD BETS BEING SORTED THROUGH AND EVENTUALLY THINGS COME BACK.

BUT BOY, IF YOU'RE IN THAT FIVE OR TEN-YEAR PERIOD WHEN THAT'S HAPPENING AND YOU'RE LOOKING TO TRY AND RETIRE, THAT DOESN'T FEEL GOOD.

>> AND YOU TALK ABOUT AI IN THE LONG-TERM, PROBABLY CREATING JOBS.

I THINK IT WAS KEYNES WHO SAID IN THE LONG-TERM WE'RE ALL DEAD.

AND I'M LOOKING AT MY COLLEGE KIDS COMING OUT OF TULANE AND STUFF, IT SEEMS PARTICULARLY COLLEGE KIDS ARE HAVING A HARDER TIME GETTING JOBS.

THAT TRUE?

>> IT IS TRUE.

MANY OF US THOUGHT, I THOUGHT THAT YOUNG PEOPLE, THEY'RE MORE TECH SAVVY.

MAYBE THEY'RE GOING DO BETTER IN THE AI REVOLUTION.

BUT ACTUALLY, WHAT WE'RE FINDING IS THAT OLDER PEOPLE ARE DOING PRETTY WELL.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THAT IS IF YOU ARE SKILLED, IF YOU'VE BEEN IN YOUR JOB FOR A COUPLE OF DECADES AND YOU KNOW HOW TO USE AND REALLY HARNESS THE PRODUCTIVITY OF THESE AI TOOLS WITH THE RIGHT QUESTIONS, THE RIGHT PARADIGMS, YOU'RE ACTUALLY DOING PRETTY WELL.

WHEREAS IF YOU'RE JUST COMING IN AND YOU'RE LEARNING, MAYBE YOU'RE A LITTLE BIT OF A DISADVANTAGE.

AND ALSO, THE JOBS THAT ARE BEING REPLACED MOST QUICKLY TEND TO BE AT THAT LOWER LEVEL.

I'LL GIVE YOU A PERFECT EXAMPLE.

I HAVE A NEW BOOK COMING OUT IN OCTOBER.

I USED AI AS A RESEARCH ASSISTANT.

I WOULD SAY IT CUT 50% OF MY RESEARCH TIME OFF.

DID THE SAME JOB THAT I MIGHT HAVE PAID A YOUNG PERSON $50,000 TO DO IN THE PAST.

THAT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT WE'RE SEEING.

>> WELL, WE USED TO SAY YOU REALLY GOT TO GET A COLLEGE DEGREE AND THAT'S GOING HELP YOU IN THE ECONOMY.

NOW WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT.

THAT IN SOME WAYS, IF YOU DON'T HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE, YOUR EARNING POWER MAY BE GREATER, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO PEOPLE DOING THINGS LIKE WELDING AND PLUMBING AND OTHER THINGS LIKE THAT.

ARE THOSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE ADVANTAGED IN THE NEARER TERM?

>> I THINK IN THE NEARER TERM, YES.

AND THERE IS A FEW REASONS FOR THAT.

ONE, AI DISPLACEMENT AT THE WHITE COLLAR LEVEL, WHICH WE JUST TALKED ABOUT.

ALSO, WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF INFRASTRUCTURE BUILD.

YOU'VE SEEN THAT SINCE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

YOU'RE SEEING IT IN DIFFERENT WAYS IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

YOU KNOW, AS WE MOVE INTO A DIFFERENT GEOPOLITICAL PARADIGM WHERE IT'S GOING TO BE MUCH MORE ABOUT SPHERES OF INFLUENCE, GREAT POWER CONFLICT.

YOU ARE SEEING THE U. S. , EUROPE, CHINA ALL BEGINNING TO REINDUSTRIALIZE AND KEEP MORE MANUFACTURING AT HOME, KEEP MORE OF THOSE BRICKS AND MORTAR JOBS AT HOME, THAT'S PART OF A BIG SWING THAT I THINK WILL HAVE LEGS.

>> WE'VE TALKED A LOT IN THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT THINGS THAT SHOULD CAUSE PRICES TO GO UP.

OIL PRICES GOING UP, GAS AT THE PUMP GOING UP, TARIFFS CAUSING A LOT OF GOODS AND SERVICES TO BE MORE EXPENSIVE.

AND ONCE AGAIN, I HAVE A COUNTERINTUITIVE QUESTION.

WHY ISN'T INFLATION HIGHER?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

MY OWN FEELING IS THAT THE FED, DESPITE ALL THE CRITICISMS WE HEAR OF THE FED, THE FED HAS ACTUALLY DONE A PRETTY DARN GOOD JOB SINCE THE FINANCIAL CRISIS AT KEEPING INFLATION UNDER CHECK.

BUT IT HAS DONE THAT BY POURING A LOT OF MONEY INTO THE ECONOMY.

MANY PEOPLE, MYSELF INCLUDED BELIEVE WE ARE NOW AT A PIVOT POINT WHERE IT'S NOT GOING TO BE SO EASY TO DO THAT ANYMORE.

AND KEVIN WARSH, THE NEW FED CHAIR, WHO I ACTUALLY HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR, HAS COME IN AND SAID I THINK THAT THE ERA OF EASY MONEY NEEDS TO END.

WE NEED TO HAVE MORE FISCAL DISCIPLINE.

IT'S GOING TO BE VERY INTERESTING NOW, WALTER, TO SEE IF HE GOING TO SQUARE OFF WITH THE PRESIDENT, WHO IS GOING TO WANT TO KEEP RATES LOWER FOR POLITICAL REASONS, ALTHOUGH WE MAY NEED THEM TO STAY A LITTLE HIGHER SO THAT WE CAN MAKE SURE THAT INFLATION PICTURE STAYS UNDER CONTROL.

>> WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT WHY OIL PRICES HAVEN'T GONE WAY UP, TO LIKE 150 OR 200, YOU SAID ONE REASON THE U. S. IS DRAWING DOWN ITS STRATEGIC RESERVE, IN OTHER WORDS, THE OIL IT KEEPS IN RESERVE IN CASE OF PRICE PROBLEM.

BUT NOW OUR STRATEGIC RESERVE I THINK IS AT THE LOWEST LEVEL IN MORE THAN 40 YEARS.

>> RIGHT.

>> IT'S THE IRAN STRUGGLE OR WHATEVER IT IS, WAR KEEPS HAPPENING, IS THAT A REAL PROBLEM?

>> IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM.

I WOULD SAY THAT IN SOME WAYS, IRAN HAS WON THIS WAR BECAUSE THEY HAVE SHOWN THAT IT IS NOT GOING TO BE BUSINESS AS USUAL IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ ANYMORE.

IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHAT HAPPENS MILITARILY.

THEY HAVE THE HIGH GROUND LITERALLY IN THE WORLD'S MOST --WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THE WORLD'S MOST IMPORTANT CHOKE POINT.

AND THAT'S A BIG DEAL.

AND IT'S INTERESTING THAT OTHER COUNTRIES ARE NOW LOOKING FOR WAYS AROUND THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

YOU'RE SEEING CHINA JUST ACTUALLY LAUNCHED A TRANSARCTIC SHIPPING ROUTE, SOMETHING I COVER IN MY LATEST BOOK.

I THINK THE CHOKE POINTS AND RESILIENCY AND FINDING WAYS TO COPE IN A WORLD WHERE GEOPOLITICAL STRIFE IS GOING WITH US FOR YEARS, IF NOT DECADES IS GOING TO SEPARATE THE WINNERS FROM THE LOSERS.

>> AND WHEN IT COMES TO THESE TARIFF WARS, WE'VE JUST SEEN THAT PRIME MINISTER MARK CARNEY OF CANADA IS HAVING DISCUSSIONS WITH THE EU PERHAPS OF HAVING A TARIFF AGREEMENT WITH THEM SINCE HE'S IN A DISPUTE WITH THE U. S. AND HASN'T BACKED DOWN.

LIKEWISE, IT SEEMS LIKE HE'S PROBABLY HAVING SOME CONVERSATIONS WITH CHINA.

DO YOU FEEL THAT ALL OF THIS COULD TAKE THE U. S. OUT OF THE CENTRAL ROLE IN THE GLOBAL ECONOMY?

>> BOY, THAT IS THE $64 BILLION QUESTION.

YEAH, I THINK WE'RE MOVING TO A WORLD WHERE IT WILL NOT BE U. S. CENTRIC ONLY.

YOU KNOW, GEOPOLITICAL PENDULUMS KIND OF SHIFT ABOUT EVERY 50, 75, 100 YEARS.

WE ARE AT ONE OF THOSE PIVOT POINTS.

MOST OF US HAVE GROWN UP AND LIVED AND WORKED IN AN ERA OF U. S. DOMINANCE.

WE ARE NOW SEEING A FUNDAMENTAL SHIFT TOWARDS REGIONALIZATION, NEW KINDS OF ALLIANCES, MIDDLE POWERS LIKE CANADA, CERTAIN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, CERTAIN ASIAN COUNTRIES ARE SAYING WAIT A MINUTE, WE CAN'T TRUST THE U. S. ANYMORE.

MAYBE WE DON'T TRUST CHINA EITHER.

SEE WHAT KIND OF HORSE TRADING WE CAN DO TOGETHER.

AND THE WHOLE MAP HAS BEEN THROWN UP IN THE AIR.

AND IT'S GOING TO BE YEARS BEFORE WE UNDERSTAND REALLY WHERE THINGS ARE GOING TO LAND.

>> RANA FOROOHAR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

> >> AND FINALLY, IT WAS A NIGHT TO REMEMBER AT THE EMMYS, PARTICULARLY FOR THE CAST AND CREW OF THE MEDICAL CENTER "THE PITT. "

WINNING ONE OF THE BIGGEST AWARDS OF THE NIGHT, OUTSTANDING DRAMA CENTERS.

CHRISTIANE SPOKE TO ONE OF THE STARS OF THE SHOW EARLIER THIS YEAR ABOUT HER ROLE AS A DOCTOR WHO WORKED IN CRISIS ZONES.

HERE'S WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT LEARNING FROM HUMANITARIAN AID WORKERS TO PLAY THAT PART.

>> IT TAKES A PARTICULAR KIND OF PERSON, CHARACTER TO DO SUCH SELFLESS ACTS TO GO TO PLACES LIKE GAZA AND LEBANON AND AFGHANISTAN, SOME PLACE THAT MY CHARACTER SERVED, AND GO TO THESE AREAS WHERE IN SOME CASES ENTIRE CITIES ARE SEEMINGLY ONE CONTINUOUS EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT, WHERE RESOURCES ARE SCARCE AND THE NEED IS OVERWHELMING.

AND SOMETHING THAT MOVED ME THAT I LAYERED INTO THIS CHARACTER WAS THAT ACROSS THE BOARD, ANYONE WHO I'VE TALKED TO OR ANYBODY WHO I'VE SEEN OR READ, SPEAK WHEN THEY COME BACK FROM HAVING BEEN DEPLOYED TALKS ABOUT DESPITE THE HORROR, DESPITE THE DESTRUCTION AND DEATH, THEY WOULD GO BACK IN A HEART BEAT, BECAUSE EVEN IN THE DEPTHS OF DARKNESS, THEY WITNESSED THESE EXTRAORDINARY ACTS OF COURAGE AND SOLIDARITY AND GENEROSITY.

AND SO FOR ME, IT WAS SO IMPORTANT FOR THIS CHARACTER TO HOLD THE VOICES OF HER COLLEAGUES THAT SHE'S LEFT BEHIND, TO HOLD THEIR PRACTICE IN HER OWN PRACTICE.

AND I THINK THIS DETAIL GIVES A SPECIFIC GRAVITY TO THIS CHARACTER IN THE WORLD OF "THE PITT. "

>> IT WAS ALSO AN EMOTIONAL EVENING FOR MICHAEL J. FOX WHO WAS AWARDED THE BOB HOPE HUMANITARIAN AWARD.

HE IS BEING RECOGNIZED BY THE TELEVISION ACADEMY FOR HIS PARKINSON'S DISEASE ADVOCACY.

HERE'S HOW HE REFLECTED ON THE SUPPORT THAT HE'S RECEIVED OVER THE YEARS.

>> INITIALLY, I KEPT MY PARKINSON'S DIAGNOSIS A SECRET.

I WORRIED THAT IT AFFECT MY WORK AND MY RELATIONSHIP WITH AUDIENCES, WOULD THEY LAUGH IF THEY KNEW I WAS SICK.

AND THEN SUPPORT FROM ALL OF YOU.

SO UPLIFTING AND JUST MADE ME FEEL LIKE I CAN KEEP DOING THIS.

I HADN'T LOST WHAT I DO, AND THEY COULDN'T TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME.

AND IT'S BECAUSE YOU STOOD UP FOR ME.

I APPRECIATE IT.

[ APPLAUSE ] > >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.