>> NOW STORYTELLING IS A POWERFUL TOOL FOR CONNECTION AND FOR PRESERVING THE MEMORIES OF OUR LOVED ONES.

THAT IS PARTICULARLY TRUE FOR TWO-TIME NATIONAL BOOK AWARD WINNER JASMINE WARD WHO HAS FOUND SOLACE IN STORYTELLING AFTER HER GRANDMOTHER PASSED AWAY FROM ALZHEIMER'S.

SHE DISCUSSES HOW HER WRITING HAS HELPED RESTORE HER HOPE AFTER DESPAIR.

>> WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> THE FIRST CHAPTER OF YOUR BOOKENDS WITH THE SIX MAGIC WORDS I THINK OF ANY WRITER, WHICH IS LET ME TELL YOU A STORY.

AND THAT'S THE THEME OF THE BOOK, IS THE POWER OF STORYTELLING.

TELL ME WHY YOU FIND STORYTELLING SO IMPORTANT.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK BACK TO I DON'T KNOW TO WHEN I WAS GROWING UP.

I COME FROM A REALLY BIG FAMILY IN RURAL MISSISSIPPI.

HUGE EXTENDED FAMILY.

AND WHEN WE GATHERED, WE CELEBRATED AND ATE AND DRANK.

BUT ALSO, THE OLDER PEOPLE IN MY FAMILY TOLD STORIES.

AND SO I GREW UP AROUND STORYTELLERS.

I GREW UP HEARING STORIES OF MY GRANDPARENTS, MY GREAT GRANDPARENTS.

SO I DON'T KNOW, I FEEL LIKE STORYTELLING HAS ALWAYS BEEN REALLY IMPORTANT TO HOW I UNDERSTAND MYSELF AND TO HOW I UNDERSTAND MY COMMUNITY AND MY FAMILY AND THE PEOPLE AROUND ME.

>> WELL, LET ME FOCUS ON THE GREAT STORYTELLER IN YOUR BOOK, WHICH IS YOUR GRANDMOTHER.

AND SHE TOLD STORIES THAT HAD A MORAL PURPOSE TO THEM AS WELL.

JUST TELL ME ABOUT HER.

TELL ME ABOUT SITTING ON HER LAP.

>> YEAH.

SO WHEN I SPEAK ABOUT MY GRANDMOTHER, I'M SPEAKING ABOUT MY MATERNAL GRANDMOTHER, MY MOM'S MOM.

AND I GREW UP WITH HER.

I MEAN, SHE WAS A SECOND, YOU KNOW, NOT REALLY A SECOND, I GUESS A THIRD PARENTAL FIGURE FOR ME.

I GREW UP IN THE HER HOUSEHOLD BECAUSE ME AND MY NUCLEAR FAMILY HAD TO LIVE WITH HER FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

SHE, WHEN SHE TOLD STORIES, SHE WAS ALWAYS, IT WAS ALWAYS IMPORTANT TO HER THAT SHE WAS TELLING THE WHOLE STORY, RIGHT?

TELLING THE GOOD WITH THE BAD.

YOU KNOW, SHE WAS, AND HER STORIES, THERE WAS A SERIOUS WEIGHT AT THE CENTER OF THEM, BUT AT THE SAME TIME THERE WAS A SERIOUS WEIGHT AT THE CENTER OF THEM, HER STORIES WERE ALSO FUNNY.

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE ALSO FULL OF LOVE AND JOY AND CONNECTION.

AND YOU KNOW, SHE DID NOT HAVE AN EASY LIFE.

YOU KNOW, SHE DID NOT COMPLETE HIGH SCHOOL.

SHE NEVER GRADUATED.

SHE EARNED HER GED.

SHE WORKED REALLY HARD THROUGHOUT HER LIFE, YOU KNOW, AS A HOUSEKEEPER AND LATER AS A FACTORY WORKER.

BUT SHE EMBRACED LIFE.

>> LET ME QUOTE HER FROM THE WAY YOU QUOTE HER IN THIS BOOK OF ESSAYS, WHICH IS YOU SAY MY DOROTHY WAS THE FIRST STORYTELLER OF MY LIFE.

ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT LESSONS SHE TAUGHT ME ABOUT LIFE AND STORY WAS THIS: TELL IT STRAIGHT, TELL IT ALL.

AND THAT'S WHAT THIS BOOK OF ESSAYS HAVE IN FICTION, YOUR NOVELS HAVE IT, WHICH IS YOU DON'T SORT OF SUGARCOAT THINGS, AND YET THERE'S A CORE OF HOPE AND OPTIMISM THAT COMES THROUGH.

>> UH-HUH.

YEAH.

I MEAN, THERE ARE TWO REASONS FOR THAT.

THE FIRST REASON IS BECAUSE WRITING, YOU KNOW, IN THAT WAY IS I'M BEING HONEST ABOUT WHAT I SEE IN MY FAMILY, IN MY EXTENDED FAMILY, AND IN MY COMMUNITY, RIGHT?

AND THEN THE SECOND REASON, YOU KNOW, THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO ME TO BE HONEST IN MY WORK IN THAT WAY IS BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE THE PEOPLE WHO CAME BEFORE ME AND MY PARENTS, MY GRANDPARENTS, MY GREAT GRANDPARENTS, ALL THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN THIS PLACE AND WHO MADE ME WHAT I AM TODAY, THEY ALWAYS, THEY LIVED THEIR LIVES THAT WAY, RIGHT?

THEY EMBRACED THE TRUTH OF THEIR LIVES.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, THEY NEVER LOST A SENSE OF HOPE.

THEY HELD THAT CLOSE TO THEM.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO THRIVE AND NOT JUST SURVIVE THEIR LIVES.

>> YEAH.

AND YOU TALK ABOUT SURVIVE.

AND ONCE AGAIN, THE LAST SENTENCE OF YOUR BOOK REPEATS THE THEME.

YOU SAY YOU TELL STORIES, YOU TELL THEIR STORIES, YOU TELL YOUR STORY.

YOU SURVIVE.

AND SO HOW IMPORTANT IS IT TO THE SURVIVAL THAT WE BECOME A SPECIES OF STORYTELLERS?

>> I THINK IT'S ESSENTIAL.

BECAUSE STORYTELLING ENABLES US, I THINK, TO CONNECT THE DOTS IN OUR LIVES, TO CARRY A SENSE OF MEANING IN OUR LIVES.

YOU KNOW, WE ALSO USE STORYTELLING TO CONNECT TO OTHERS, AND THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TOO.

>> ONE OF THE SAD THINGS I NOTICED IN THE BOOK IS THAT SHE DEVELOPS ALZHEIMER'S.

WHAT DO YOU LEARN FROM THAT WHEN SHE CAN NO LONGER REMEMBER THE STORIES?

>> UM, IT'S HEARTBREAKING REALLY.

YOU KNOW, SHE WAS A STORYTELLER.

MY GRANDMOTHER HAD SO MUCH KNOWLEDGE, I THINK, OF MY FAMILY AND OF MY COMMUNITY AND OUR HISTORY.

AND SO WHEN SHE BEGAN TO LOSE HER STORIES, SHE LOST AN IMPORTANT PART OF HERSELF, I THINK.

AND YOU KNOW, BECAUSE SHE WAS THE FIRST STORYTELLER OF MY LIFE, BECAUSE SHE HELPED ME TO LEARN TO SEE THE WORLD THROUGH STORIES AND THROUGH CONNECTIONS, IT WAS HEARTBREAKING I THINK, YOU KNOW, FOR ME TO WITNESS HER LOSING THOSE STORIES.

>> BUT DO YOU FEEL YOU'RE CARRYING ON HER WORK?

>> I HOPE SO.

[LAUGHTER] >> I HOPE SO.

YOU KNOW, SHE WAS AN EXCEPTIONAL, YOU KNOW, STORYTELLER, LIKE IN PERSON.

AN ORAL STORYTELLER.

YOU KNOW, I PRACTICE IN A DIFFERENT MEDIUM.

BUT I DON'T KNOW, I HOPE THAT I'M CARRYING ON HER LEGACY AND THAT I'M MAKING HER PROUD.

>> ONE OF THE COMPLEXITIES OF RACE YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS WHEN YOUR GRANDMOTHER DOROTHY GOES TO VISIT HER WHITE AUNTIE.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH.

THAT'S ONE OF THE EARLIEST STORIES THAT MY GRANDMOTHER TOLD ME.

YOU KNOW, AS I SAID, SHE WAS VERY INTENT ON TELLING YOU THE WHOLE TRUTH, BUT THAT WAS ONE OF THE EARLIEST STORIES THAT SHE TOLD ME.

SO YOU KNOW, MY FAMILY IS MIXED, I GUESS.

AND SO SHE WOULD VISIT HER WHITE, I GUESS HER GRAND-AUNT.

SO IT WAS HER GRANDMOTHER'S SISTER WHO WAS WHITE, AND HER GRANDMOTHER WAS WHITE.

AND THEY ACTUALLY LIVED UP IN MISSISSIPPI WHICH IS SORT OF NORTH.

THEY WOULD VISIT DURING THE DAYTIME, RIGHT, AND YOU KNOW HER WHITE GRANDMOTHER WOULD GO, AND THEN HER DAD.

AND THEN ALL THE KIDS WOULD SORT OF PILE IN THE CAR.

BUT WHEN SUNSET APPROACHED, HER AUNT WOULD SAY OKAY, IT'S TIME FOR YA'LL TO GO.

>> AND THAT'S BECAUSE IT WAS A WHITE COMMUNITY AND DELISLE WAS A BLACK COMMUNITY, EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE ABUTTING EACH OTHER.

>> SHE WAS CONCERNED FOR THEIR SAFETY, RIGHT, IF THEY WERE THERE DURING THE NIGHT.

AND SO THEY WOULD PILE BACK INTO THE CAR, BUT MY GRANDMOTHER WAS A BROWN-SKINNED WOMAN, AND ALL OF HER SIBLINGS WERE VARYING SHADES OF BROWN.

LIKE YOU COULD TELL THEY WERE MIXED.

AND SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO HIDE IN THE TRUNK OF THE CAR, AND SHE WOULD ALWAYS TELL ME, SHE'D ALWAYS SAY WE CALLED IT THE BOOT.

WE WOULD ALL HAVE TO CLIMB INTO THE TRUNK OF THE CAR, AND THEY WOULD CLOSE THE BOOT.

EVEN THOUGH THE SUN HADN'T EVEN SET YET, BUT THAT'S HOW THEY WOULD RIDE BACK.

AND HER GRANDMOTHER WOULD SIT IN FRONT, AND THEN HER FATHER WHO WAS SO LIGHT SKINNED THAT HE COULD PASS FOR WHITE IF NEED BE, THEY WOULD SIT IN THE FRONT.

>> THIS GREAT BOOK, WHICH I LOVED, IS CALLED ON WITNESS AND RESPARE.

I KNOW A LOT OF WORDS, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW THE WORD RESPAIR.

>> I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE POET WHO TAUGHT ME THE WORD.

IT WAS A POET I FOLLOWED.

AND IN 2020, THEY MADE A NUMBER OF POSTS ABOUT HOW THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT THE WORD RESPAIR AND HOLDING THAT WORD CLOSE TO THEM.

I THOUGHT I DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT THAT MEANS.

THEN THEY EXPLAINED WHAT IT MEANS, AND THAT IT MEANS TO FIND HOPE AFTER DESPAIR.

AND I, YOU KNOW, I THINK I LIT UP, YOU KNOW, LIKE NOW WHEN I READ IT BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT'S A REAL SHAME THAT WE'VE LOST THAT WORD AND THAT WE DON'T HAVE THAT WORD BECAUSE NOW THAT I KNOW IT, IT FEELS LIKE AN ESSENTIAL CONCEPT, AN ESSENTIAL IDEA.

AND SO I MADE NOTE OF IT, RIGHT?

AND SO THEN WHEN I WAS WORKING ON THE ESSAY ABOUT MY PARTNER, MY SPOUSE WHO DIED IN EARLY 2020, I THOUGHT THIS IS A PERFECT WORD TO SHARE, YOU KNOW, IN THIS ESSAY.

>> WHEN YOU WERE YOUNG IN THE LIBRARY IN MISSISSIPPI, THERE WAS A MAP OF MISSISSIPPI WRITERS, AND IT HAD BLACK AND WHITE.

IT HAD RICHARD WRIGHT, RICHARD FAULKNER, BUT YOU STARTED READING THESE PEOPLE.

LET ME START WITH FAULKNER.

I HAVE AN ODD THEORY ABOUT YOUR BOOK, WHICH YOU MAY PUSH BACK ON.

WHICH IS DELISLE AND ALL YOUR NOVELS ARE IN THIS TOWN.

IT'S LIKE THE COUNTY IS TO FAULKNER.

YOU HAVE CLINTON SITTING AT AUNT ROSA'S FEET LISTENING TO THE STORYTELLING OF IT.

HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK YOU'RE SIMILAR AND HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DIFFERENT FROM FAULKNER?

BECAUSE YOU BOTH WRITE ABOUT RACE IN THESE TINY COMMUNITIES.

>> I MEAN, I THINK THAT I DEFINITELY SORT OF MODELED THIS IDEA OF WRITING ABOUT A COMMUNITY, WRITING ABOUT A TOWN, AND ALSO FICTIONALIZING BASICALLY MY HOMETOWN IN THIS AREA ALONG THE GULF COAST BECAUSE I READ FAULKNER AND BECAUSE I SAW WHAT HE DID IN HIS WORK AND HOW HE MADE THAT PLACE SEEM ALIVE AND COMPLICATED AND REAL, RIGHT?

AND SO YES, I THINK I DEFINITELY MODELED MY FICTION AFTER HIS.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S THIS SENSE OF ATMOSPHERE IN HIS WORK THAT I THINK THAT I ALSO TRY TO, I DON'T KNOW, TRANSLATE INTO MY OWN WORK.

>> LET ME TAKE THE BLACK WRITER THAT YOU LOVED TOO GROWING UP, WHICH IS RICHARD WRIGHT.

AND YET YOU SAY SOMETHING OF HIM THAT'S ODD.

YOU SAY HE WRITES WITH RANKOR.

DID THAT BOTHER YOU?

>> I THINK IT DID BOTHER ME.

AT THE TIME, I DON'T THINK I COULD HAVE ARTICULATED IT, BUT AS I'VE SORT OF GROWN AND DEVELOPED AS A WRITER AND I THINK ABOUT HIS, I THOUGHT ABOUT HIS EARLIER WORK.

I THINK THAT THE, LET'S SEE, THE HARSHNESS, LIKE THE HARSH NATURE OF HIS GROWING UP IN MISSISSIPPI, LIKE THAT WAS ALWAYS CRYSTAL CLEAR IN HIS WORK, RIGHT?

AND REALLY VIVID AND WELL DEVELOPED.

BUT I WAS LOOKING, I THINK, FOR SOMETHING MORE.

I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND, TO BETTER UNDERSTAND HOW HE SURVIVED MISSISSIPPI.

BECAUSE I FELT LIKE, I DON'T KNOW, AT LEAST FOR ME, FAMILY AND COMMUNITY ARE AT THE HEART OF SURVIVING AND THRIVING.

>> HE DOESN'T EXACTLY SURVIVE MISSISSIPPI BECAUSE HE LEAVES, AND I THINK YOU KIND OF BLAME HIM FOR LEAVING.

AND YOU COME HOME.

>> I DO.

>> LET ME LEAP TO THAT.

WHY DID YOU COME HOME?

>> YOU KNOW, I WOULDN'T, I DON'T SAY THAT I, I DON'T THINK THAT I BLAME HIM FOR LEAVING MISSISSIPPI BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND.

I FLED WHEN I GRADUATED.

AS SOON AS I GOT THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET OUT OF MISSISSIPPI, I LEFT, AND I SPENT MUCH OF MY YOUNG ADULTHOOD, YOU KNOW, INTO MY 30s FOR I DON'T KNOW 15, 16, 17 YEARS LIVING IN OTHER PLACES.

BUT THEN I RETURNED AS AN ADULT.

I USUALLY SAY THE REASON I RETURNED IS BECAUSE AT THE SAME TIME THAT I, THERE'S SOMETHING THAT I LOATHE ABOUT THIS PLACE, I ALSO LOVE THIS PLACE.

>> TORTURED LOVE I THINK IS YOUR PHRASE.

>> I LOVE THE LANDSCAPE.

I LOVE THE BEAUTY OF THE PLACE.

I LOVE THE PEOPLE, RIGHT?

MY FAMILY IS HERE.

I HAVE A HUGE EXTENDED FAMILY.

JUST ON MY MOM'S MOM'S SIDE, MY MATERNAL GRANDMOTHER'S SIDE, THERE ARE OVER 200 OF US ON THAT SIDE OF MY FAMILY.

SO I HAVE A HUGE EXTENDED FAMILY.

I HAVE, YOU KNOW, A COMMUNITY, A REALLY SUPPORTIVE COMMUNITY.

AND I THINK IT'S HARD TO RESIST THE LURE OF THOSE.

AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE PLACE THAT INSPIRES ME, RIGHT?

THIS IS A PLACE THAT INFORMS MY WORK.

AND SO I THINK I WANTED TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER OR NOT I COULD LIVE AND WORK HERE AS AN ADULT.

AND SO FAR, I'M DOING IT.

>> YOUR NOVELS, ALL OF THEM, EVEN SALVAGE THE BONES END, I THINK, WITH HOPEFUL NOTES.

IS THAT RIGHT?

AND WHY?

>> I THINK SO.

I THINK ALL MY WORK, THERE'S AN ELEMENT OF HOPE, I THINK, IN ALL OF MY WORK.

PART OF THE REASON I THINK THAT IS TRUE AND PERHAPS THE MOST ESSENTIAL REASON IS BECAUSE AS I SAID, I LOOK AT MY GRANDMOTHER'S LIFE, I LOOK AT MY GREAT GRANDPARENTS' LIFE.

WHEN I WAS GROWING UP WHEN I WAS A KID, SEVERAL OF MY GREAT GRANDPARENTS WERE STILL ALIVE, RIGHT?

AND SO I, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT THEIR LIVES, AND THEY, WITHOUT SOME SENSE OF HOPE, YOU KNOW, WITHOUT SOME SENSE OF HOPE THAT THEY COULD SORT OF LIVE THEIR WAY TO A BETTER TOMORROW AND THEY COULD HELP SORT OF CREATE A BETTER TOMORROW.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK THEY WOULD HAVE, I DON'T THINK THEY WOULD HAVE SURVIVED, YOU KNOW, MISSISSIPPI IN THE '20s AND '30s AND '40s AND '50s.

SO I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, I TRY TO HONOR THAT IN MY CREATIVE NON- FICTION.

BUT IN MY FICTION AS WELL.

>> WE'RE ABOUT TO HAVE OUR 250th BIRTHDAY AS A NATION.

IT'S A TIME OF A LOT OF DESPAIR AND A LOT OF DISCORD.

WHAT LESSONS FROM POOR, BLACK COMMUNITY IN MISSISSIPPI DO YOU HAVE FOR THE NATION?

>> UH, WELL I THINK WE HAVE TO FOLLOW MY GRANDMOTHER DOROTHY'S LEAD, RIGHT?

I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO TELL THE WHOLE STORY, TELL THE WHOLE TRUTH.

EVEN IF IT MAKES US UNCOMFORTABLE, WE HAVE TO RECKON, AND WE HAVE TO WITNESS WITH IT ALL.

BECAUSE THAT'S HOW WE GET TO, I THINK, A FULLER UNDERSTANDING OF WHO WE ARE AND OF WHAT WE CAN BECOME.

AND I THINK THAT'S HOW WE ALSO STILL HOLD ONTO A SENSE OF HOPE, ESPECIALLY RIGHT NOW.

I THINK IN A MOMENT THAT FOR MANY OF US, ESPECIALLY THOSE OF US FROM MY NECK OF THE WOODS THAT CAN FEEL RATHER HOPELESS.

>> JASMINE WARD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.