> > This week on the Online political rhetoric.

> > humanizing language violence against women.

♪ > > for > > Connecticut Public on Frankie Graziano.

This is the Wheelhouse.

The show that connects politics, the people we got your weekly dose of politics in Connecticut and beyond right here.

This hour, we're asking how polarizing content and digital language makes its way into politics.

The Department of Defense and the Homeland Security Department have recently used language present in French and extreme online spaces.

Later, we'll discuss how online misogyny is linked to real world violence.

But first will learn about extremist language and the platforms creators use it on.

Juyeon Sock is a professor in the Department of Communication at the University of Connecticut to you.

And thank you so much for being here.

> > Thanks so much for the invite and thanks for having me.

> > Excited to talk to Adam Elect sick is a linguist online creator known as algae nerd.

It's also the author of Algo Speak.

Social Media is transforming the future language.

Adam, thank you so much for being here.

> > I'm excited to be here.

> > Excited to talk to you at and I'm gonna give you the first question here.

I do want to invite folks to give us a call.

8, 8, 8, 7 to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, They may also send us an e-mail.

But you also may watch live on our YouTube stream as well.

Junior work details how social media platforms are designed.

Talk to us about how social media has evolved over the last decade.

> > Yeah, sure.

So social when it was first introduced by it for example, a uniform or on Facebook court, Twitter like in late 2000.

Or something, it was like a celebrity Terry platform or technology to connect users across different parts of the world to share their, you know, their their lives very on, do some expressions and engage with other people.

It was like a celebrity, a platform and technology.

And it was celebrity because it had like a little.

You have like a lower bar for their users to participate in like a public discussions, which was not possible like in a in the 4 sample in a $0.10 Really 19 center because because the bar to participate in poll public discussions and politics was and women and men are ties.

Citizens were not able to partisan heat indices.

All social media platforms serve that cycle.

So lever trade technology, however, over time, one thing to know is that.

Social media platforms are not 100% neutral space.

100% politically neutral.

What they mean by that is it is carefully designed with some kind of intentional choices.

For example, some kind of design features or technological features or some kind of Florida says that certain opportunities and constraints for user engagement and user participation.

So all we can, for example, is one example or or recommendation systems is another example which saw that really drive drive users to engage with more certain certain content to, for example, research shows that emotionally charters content or politically charge content are more likely to drive engagement and user participation.

So the the technological features are naturally designed to incentivise those kind of highly engaging content in that sense.

Social media platform.

Though it seems like on because of the low bar for participation and it's accessible to everyone.

It seems like all Democrat Tazing the Oats at the same time due to those kind of strategic and Santa Florda and constraints that platforms, pro fight.

It has become a platform and due space where certain ideas are certain voices are certain contents are more likely to be amplified and become visible than others.

What are we seeing?

Social media algorithms prioritize today.

> > research shows that.

The content.

> > That is emotionally engaging as a constant or negative content or compared to the new toll on emotionally neutral content are more likely to > > drive participation and engagement, especially those with like a frustration or anger or more likely to contract participation engagement.

Also at the same time, research also shows that like false information and fake news are more likely to drive engagement in travel faster than true information because those are emotionally.

Those may be emotionally laden and ideologically charged.

> > Can you briefly walk us through this process of the content on the fringes of online spaces that then makes its way to mainstream content.

> > Yeah, sure.

> > So so.

> > Like those.

> > Content or is or or culture that are part of the unknown.

> > That has been part of fringe community is not that mainstream could that potentially circulated among themselves bogged once it gets picked by over them and platform from design can be really amplified.

For example, the thing is users do not state and one platform users also migrate across different platforms and therefore their ideas and their languages and content.

Also Travers across different platforms.

So even though their origin, all rhetoric or idea or language might have started from like the one singles social media space or online at work because users do migrate across different platforms.

Those ideas also Travers, all pro stiffer digital spaces.

And with a beach like different digital spaces, again, going back to the platform, design and read them especially when they are like emotionally charged and politically politically charged.

They're more likely to get amplified and picked off by other users, therefore, becoming part of all part of the mainstream discussion.

And here I'm talking about the role of the platform out with them and platform architecture.

Well, I want to make sure that at the same time, users are also more likely to consolidate and on.

So they did it is that are like minded.

users also have a tendency to respond to like-minded use.

So it's like a two-way streets.

It's also it's not only the platform, but also the users.

How users respond > > And we talked about how to it.

polarizing content becomes part of our mainstream content.

One recent example.

A so-called in cells is a subculture of met online.

Adam, can you clarify for us who in cells are and how they fit into our conversation about extreme content.

> > Yeah, in cells or involuntary celibate, its who are people who believe that they cannot participate in normal social relationship dynamics because they are less attractive and all of society is ranking people based on attractiveness in their world view.

One of their friends forms they started on was in 1997.

Along as involuntary celibate for him.

And they called in the cells with a V and they dropped a V. Then they moved to 4 Chan 4 Chan.

They create kind of this incubator for all kinds of language and ideas that radicalize them far further than before.

And it turns in this misogynistic sort of stomping ground I would say are very Adam Ise ING reductive ideas.

Then these ideas, I would say are mainly spreading in the form of humor.

So these are less.

It's emotional content and it's causing people to be angry.

And that's why it's spreading.

It's more broadening the window of what is okay to say through jokes in irony which can be used as a cloaking mechanism where all right.

It's not me.

It's an ironic joke.

But in that sort of opens the window to discussion for this sort of idea.

So there's a plausible deniability to the joke.

And that is one of the high arousal emotions which triggers a user response and social media.

> > Here's one definition from the vice in cells are an online subculture of men who form their identity around their perceived inability to form sexual or romantic relationships.

Many in cells.

Have a nihilistic perspective of the self.

Strong misogynistic believes about women and importantly share the view that society hates them.

I want to play a clip here of an online creator called.

Vicki Allure whose real name is Brandon Peters.

According to the New York Times, he's known for looksmaxxing and online subculture amendment has blown up in legacy media in recent months.

The looksmaxxing community has been here for a while.

We were talking about this as well, though, in the first administration says Eurocentric standards of male, beauty and masculinity are the keys to achievement the community repeatedly demeans women through Tiktoks and Instagram clips.

Peters talking on the Adam Friedland Show about within trying to become online looks.

Max ERs.

Sometimes there'll be girl try like Clark their way into the community.

> > Meant to be a male dominated space.

second male space in general because women have just and exponentially easier time living life.

> > What do you hear when you listen to that, Adam?

> > Well, I picked up on the word lark, which comes from live action role play, but is now sort of an incel slang where this break into the mainstream but yeah, just kind of this classic misogyny actually install started out by Alanna woman who started this thing and then it was taken command of N it's really used to build this male identity.

And what could a killer is?

He's not in in.

So actually in cells are big.

Covid kular has lots of sexual relations.

They're sort of concentric circles of how these ideas spread at the core.

The people who are creating the most language and are spending the most time online are incels on these obscure forms.

Then there's a a circle around them.

The the looks maxar is the black community as it's called.

So taking the black pill means you are accepting incel philosophy and so we'll see the Suffolk spilled show up.

if I really like breeders, I can say I'm burrito, killed, then technically that races all the way back to the Matrix with the idea of taking the red toy, the blue pill and there's the rent on politics.

But the black pill is what made that into a productive suffix.

So on the idea that you could realize that, oh, yeah, looks are everything and join our movement create this sort of like flawed acceptance into the philosophy that then and within that black cold, there are different groups.

So the looks next.

Ers are people who believe they can still ascend into kind of Moore odds status in society simply bite doing surgical cosmetics by going to the gym that's called Jim Axing.

So Maxine is maximizing some part of your appearance but COVID colors and that looks next singer.

And then there's the general managed fear which is adjacent to all this and maybe not directly subscribing to these ideas.

But the idea is still filter through.

Adam Wired notes that Vicky Lures videos often have captions that outsiders make little sense.

> > Here's one clavicular ran into a frat leader at ASU and got brutally frame act by him.

Vicki allure streams on kicked where content moderation is loose.

Lee compared to spots like Twitch or YouTube and the videos often get boosted by advertisers.

Regardless of their hateful or misogynistic content.

So talk more about the language you hear like getting and see in these looks maxing videos.

> > Yaklich colors and posting these videos.

He's doing a live stream and that it's being clipped farmed and clip farming is he is about 20 people or more that he's hired to look at his videos.

Find viral snippets and then post them on Twitter or on other platforms for online success.

And that both brings in clinic.

You learn more viewers to a stream eventually and the clip.

Farmers get to make something off of Twitter in that moment.

But what you have is the sort of incentive this perverse incentive to make more and more violent content doesn't matter what the content is.

As long as your clip farming.

And this is unfortunately easy way to get distribution above all else above whether the messaging preserves human kindness or anything as long as you make a clip go viral, you're making money.

So there's literally this incentive that exists is this bizarre algo speak that we see in these videos a way to get around online filters.

> > And promoting stream hateful content while still be able to get that ad revenue.

> > I would say less of it.

When we talk about click, you are actually and getting from a to the club is about algo speak and more about how these words are interchangeable with trending keywords.

So kind of Co data.

Search engine optimization data all words are now viewed by the hour.

The men are trending in their own right in the outgoing pushes trying to go viral.

Humans resonate with words that we find absurd.

We are amused by the idea of linguistic played that we can find new words in new situations and also serves as an in group indicator that if you know this tweet, you are part of the in group of people who speak this online vernacular that creates a feeling of exclusivity for the exact same reason.

The in cells also have this were these words in the first place.

Now these words are parroting how incels talks is maybe a subversive element there that resonates beyond the incel a sphere and can be used.

Ironically, however, the in cells themselves have this very obscure language that you use within their community because it create that in group feeling of identity for them almost creating a cold like hierarchy of either.

You know, the language or urine or me.

> > Often we hear clavicular say things like Modding as we mentioned or chads.

It in Vol it evokes the type of hierarchy.

What is the hierarchy and how are they defining it?

> > Yeah, the ideas the in cells at the bottom.

Then you have norm ease in the middle who are aware of this socios actual hierarchy and then on top, you have chads or gig chads.

And there's a that they've tried to normalize and make scientific.

But there's a ranking of who is more or less track in society guy is essentially a mask elation, somebody higher in hierarchy can't just show up next to someone with a smaller frame and frame of mock So that's a dynamic that exists all male.

The male interactions in the incel world view and in the looks next in Worldview are one of the mass collation and all male to female interactions are inherently sexual.

It creates a very binary view of the world.

> > This indicates that the way we are talking online due is evolving.

But now that our culture has expanded here online, do you see any relationship between extremist rhetoric online and how politicians are talking in the real world.

> > Yes, absolutely.

> > So when that those kind of extreme 6.

> > This language of rhetoric, and it is from fringe spaces to the mainstream spaces when it gets picked up and amplified by political elites.

> > It becomes like all pathway of normalizing and legitimizing those kind of ideas.

problem with incel, for example, is that the highly specific language developed by those offerings communities, which was once confined to like very niche corners of the Internet, has bled into the mainstream additional digital culture in everybody.

The cavalry among social media users.

And then with those kind of language is picked up by a like, for example, institutions or political elites in political politicians.

It means that the ad is and what the culture behind behind a language becomes normalize.

Anna, potentially accelerate adoption of the language and diffusion of that left wage.

> > I want to get your take on this.

Adam would what do you think about this kind of seeping into the real world and how politicians are sort of using this language?

Yeah, the Pentagon recently posted about lethality maxing drawing on that actually idea of maximizing something.

> > For humorous effect to their the White House is effectively clip farming right now.

The same way that people were clipped farm about collective where you take a viral idea and you spend in your own way, it becomes more viral.

And if it's used by of Christie's group, then it goes more viral.

The concern here is that there's a concept called the Overton window, which is the range of acceptable discourse in society and it's generally thought that this window moves the more a certain kind of ideas represented.

So the Overton window use not allow gay marriage.

We didn't think about that as possible until the gay liberation moving more people start talking about the wind, a move that eventually gay marriage was legalized.

So the idea is there's an Overton window of how acceptable of misogyny is in society or this looks.

Maxine Blackpool ideas in society and the more we're talking about it, the more or ambient Lee normalizing this sort of rhetoric.

And certainly there are on thousands of new people on these Ansel forums every single year.

The ideas definitely gaining traction, which is highly concerning.

> > Adam, we see this language popping up everywhere from TikTok to the Department of Defense.

The X account from the DOD recently posted.

Low cortisol locked in.

We found him axing.

There's also an example from John all of our he's reading an email.

His show received from the Department of Homeland Security.

Here's that clip.

> > I have to tell you, we reached out to DHS for comment tonight.

Angrily denied any dog whistles.

I think we will not apologize for using petrol.

Think messaging.

I'm symbolism in our vote this months.

They also told us and I quote, one could say we all home loans, maxing, why removing illegal aliens and defending all boards the sentence a genuinely a full citing outline.

> > The lines between language and political and digital language and political language are blurring with that impact.

> > Well, that they've always been blurring the concern is, again, that that idea of where normalizing this and it wasn't something that was normalized before.

I think irony can be a two-sided sword where one it is used to criticize the in cells.

And I think a lot of these jokes can be read on the side of the left as mocking incel speech.

However, it can be used the other way to where it turns into a misogynistic dog whistle.

it really depends on context and application.

But the fact is that and the more people who are saying this, the easier it is to push through kind of Trojan horse and idea into the mainstream discourse.

Going back to so-called in cell culture.

Are there specific ideologies or believes that in cells largely sheriff?

So what are they?

> > The main idea, allergies, the black pill, this idea that looks are everything and that there is set ranking between individual is that you can hope to accent ascent through through looksmaxxing.

But the bottom tier, the bottom 2% or something well on a bill will be unable to ever us and no matter how much they try to improve their appearance through going to the gym or surgery or whatever.

And this group is the in cells outside of that are still very dangerous communities that do not identifies in cells, but our case and the looks next year's in the ministry.

And so on.

You think the language has been effective in recruiting people into in south forms or adopting this ideology?

> > It's it's intriguing in the same way that a traffic accident is intriguing.

And you want to slow down in rubbernecking.

Look at There's something fascinating about it.

And people are drawn to learn more about these words.

And then that creates a feeling of joining this selective group.

A lot of these incel forms are anonymous, 4 Chan where a lot of these words started out was anonymous and that anonymity created a sort of pressure.

We've talked about platform Forton says there's a pressure demonstrate that you are part of this in group.

So you need to share proficiency in slaying.

That shows that you are not an or me and it becomes an identity marker for for these groups.

> > From Connecticut Public Radio, this is the Wheelhouse.

I'm Frankie Gratz.

And you've been listening to G One Sock a professor in the Department of Communication that you got.

Thank you for coming on the show due.

> > Thank you so much.

Adam Elect sick author in Lake was going to stay with us for a little bit.

While while longer, they'll stay.

> > To talk about the conversation here.

Online language is a political tool.

Also be joined by a new friend.

How do you see online culture permeating politics?

Hit us up 87 to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, more Wheelhouse after this ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ this is the Wheelhouse from Connecticut Public Radio.

I'm Frankie Graziano, as Zarina online interactions evolve Internet silos once considered friends are spilling over into mainstream politics.

We're talking about how the line blurs between online jokes and real world violence today with.

Adam Elect sick.

Linguist and online creator.

He's the author of the 2025 book Algo Speak.

How Social Media is transforming the future of language.

Adam, thank you for sticking with us.

I also doctor Sayeed Hill, a counseling psychologist, and independent consultant in the field of men and masculinity ease.

Also president-elect of the society for the psychology of Men and masculinity ease at the American Psychological Association site.

Thank you so much for coming on the show.

> > And thanks for having me this morning.

Frankie.

Appreciate it.

> > Folks, you have any thoughts on the Internet as a political tool, give us a call.

8, 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 720-9677.

Sayeed lethality.

Maxing.

We've heard Pete Hegseth use it.

Would you say the administration is using terms found in forms that spread misogynistic and racist ideas.

> > Yeah, absolutely.

There seems to be appeal to it.

So I really appreciate what Adam was saying earlier.

I mean, it allows it signals to people listening to it that you're part of this community.

You're one of us and honestly what it does do, it buys into a lot of the community or the desire for community that a lot of these young men have and desire.

A lot of the reasons they find their ways into these communities is because they feel maybe a specific lack of social you know, confidence and so, you know it when you have somebody in high positions of government who actually looks the way that he does as well, it kind of signal that look at these good-looking people to have all of the power and control and where one of them were with them and what it honestly does.

It also allows for maybe the administration and people use this kind of terminology to kind of, you know, get away with a little bit more, too, because honestly, if it seems like we're on your team and we use that sort of language that allows you to look the other way while we continue to do whatever we want to do because we won't have as much pushback.

So when it might intentionally kind of do it, maybe unintentionally some circumstances kind of creates a feeling of obedience from an audience rather than bravery to kind of stand up against that, especially when it comes to things like violence and those sorts of things.

> > Adam Site and I were talking before the show I mentioned in that language I developed with friends at Torrington High School, real soften work used with friends.

He and I were were talking and he said this is kind of like a crypt elect.

You know what that is, Adam, and why would that be relevant to what we're talking about with the language young people use online today?

> > Yeah.

Crypto like that is a secret language and we've seen a different trip to lax in the criminal groups before or even just minority groups that need a way to express themselves outside of the police surveillance and everybody creates their own.

Mike, would I like to make retallick with your family?

So it's not strange that in online community would come up with a dialect, especially if they're trying to hide a part of their identity or create a shared identity for themselves.

They might turn to these crypto LAX, which is an obscure way of talking.

If you go onto the and so forms which I do not recommend it really is unrecognizable unless you are highly birth in Internet culture, so what you end up with is a language which is almost not even English anymore.

It's pretty unrecognizable.

If if you're speak normal English, so.

And in so online will feel like some somebody is actually speaking their language.

But in in so offline will not be able to relate as much because your mother and your father and your school counselor will not have the terms are the playing ground to meet you at?

They're simply a a mismatch in the type of language is being used during the first that Trump was in the White House was often criticized.

The administration is using dog whistles.

> > Is that still the case now that we're in the second administration, I still getting that that that Rob.

> > Yeah, 100% language has always implied extra meaning.

And while the word itself can be a new tool tool and I think Maxine itself does not connote misogyny, the context in which it is used and especially if used it by a government official to describe a war action 100% signal something to them.

And it's here.

On the Department of Homeland Security's Instagram page, a post using Chad imagery associated with in cell culture was posted depicting the character searching through the DHS website and looking at immigrants convicted of crime power means being utilized by the Trump administration.

And for what purpose?

And again creates that boundary of irony in reality which we can hopscotch between and if the offensive thing we can just say ohsa Dzhokhar bat and then there's a plausible deniability that you're not dealing with reality anymore.

And the the humor here serves 2 lessen the severity of what's actually happening in.

You'll see the the Department awards also posting all these video game images and all this kind of online language and online means that are related to war, but not actually the war itself.

And that's because it sort of serves to confuse the ideal of war with The medic idea of where the stuff you see in video games and movies, which doesn't actually reflect the bloodshed on the ground and a similar thing with the ice raids.

If you gain the fight turned into this trivial Internet, think it loses its gravity in real life.

In addition to the hyper masculine Chad, are there other images that got their start on message boards like 4 Chan that you see proliferating in the political space.

Yeah.

The word charred which originally right person, derogatory leak into the mainstream.

It is now sort of a general insult the word Sigma originally describing an idealized man in the menace fear who goes their own way.

And we're yeah, a lot of terms kind of like that.

Maxine appealed cut again.

all of these terms that sort of reflect that idea of a hierarchy that is that is there Sayeed.

You have any thoughts about the toxicity of certain images or or memes and the impact that has on young men in the real world.

> > Yeah, I mean, I think serves a purpose and design sort of desensitizing us too overt violence that we see when we see other human beings constantly being harmed in a sense humor.

It can really just make it seem like Adams said as part of just mainstream media.

And it really just serves to sort of desensitize us at a time when honestly, a lot of these online spaces kind of tell us that our emotions are range of emotions is a problem.

So if you're anything but angry, you know, that means you're a failure.

You know, if you have some sort of empathy, remember, we've heard this and a lot of this discourse for this administration about empathy being a deficit and the theme being an issue for people to have too much empathy.

So I think this is all being served to really continue to desensitize us and also attract us a little bit more to that violence on the other hand, I will also say that is for people who don't for especially young men who do not buy into this ideology, seeing this sort of constant, you know, barrage of imagery around violence and maybe like ice raids and things like that could actually serve to sort of radicalize people in sort of a different way where it could cause people who have a different kind of ideology to really want to like fight back against this and try to find means of fighting back against that.

So I think a lot of online spaces we've actually seen a lot of like really left the men sort of also wondering like where the weapons come into play here.

I know the algorithms to try to to really push us to a certain direction around our emotions.

My also push weapons imagery to us as a way to say we can also protect our communities from this sort of, you know, tyranny and this sort of thing.

So it really serves multiple ways in multiple directions depending on what your ideological, you know, loyalties lie.

> > From Connecticut Public Radio, this is the Wheelhouse.

I'm Frankie Graziano.

We got to hear from Adam Elect sick today.

He's an American linguist and content creator known as the Etymology Nerd.

Adam, also the author of Al Ghosts because Social media is transforming the future of language.

Thank you for coming on the show today.

Thank you for having me.

So great to have you on, doctor.

He'll stay on because we're going to be back to dive deeper into language and extremism were here to talk about all of this.

Hit us up now at 8, 8, 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, They will take some of your calls back with more.

We'll house after a short break.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ This is the Wheelhouse from Connecticut Public Radio.

I'm Frankie Graziano.

Earlier we talked about how polarizing content has made its way into the mainstream and even our politics now.

We'll talk about what this means in the future and of interventions are possible.

Back with us is doctor Site Kunce counseling, psychologist and independent consultant in the field of men and masculinity.

Ease folks call us in the next few minutes.

If you'd like to get on before the show ends, we're taking calls on anything and everything we're talking about today, including language extremism.

Polarization if your brief we can talk about anything, 8, 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, Can we talk about intervention side like how would you address someone using the type of language referred today on the show if they were in your office?

> > Yeah.

I mean, I feel like if I hear people using this sort of language, I already know something about them.

I know they're probably chronically online, but I also don't want to assume that they just buy into completely this sort of ideology.

For example, I'm very familiar with these terms.

I don't buy into this sort of ideology, but I just have an understanding of it.

A lot of boys and men are just chronically online.

Many of us struggle to communities offline for various reasons.

And so I do think that number one just add seeing that people have this sort of language and vocabulary doesn't necessarily tell us something about them as opposed like except that they're just online quite a bit on the other hand, if I'm saying that a lot of people are sort of buying into this sort of ideology, I think I just sort of asked like with this ideology sort of provides them something people need to understand is that a lot of this language is protective for people.

It helps describe when people are in pain when people feel isolated and people feel lonely language helps people describe how they feel and so if there is a community of language trying to just attack that or criticize it could have the opposite effect or impact.

So I think you just need to have if you're working with folks like this, I try to have a lot of compassion for this.

I try to understand that people are coming at this from a lot of different places and probably from a lot of different pain.

And just asked what is having this language was adopting this language.

What is this community provide to you that you don't think other communities may and through that and establishing my relationship to them.

I'm hoping to kind of demonstrate that you can actually establish a really caring affirming relationship with someone offline.

And that doesn't involve degradation of other human beings around, especially those who have less power than they do.

> > As a harm reduction and community support specialist you're having to have compassion for people.

These are also conversations we're having to have compassion in some way for men that have committed abuse.

> > Absolutely.

So let me say this about the cat compassion conversation.

I have a lot of compassion for for these men because I think of harm as sort of a continuum as opposed to something that you are are not.

You are either harmful or not harmful.

I think, you know, we've all use different language just to demean someone at some point, you know, maybe make jokes that we think are just like small Jones.

Adam was talking about this earlier.

They're just jokes, you know, and that sort of thanks if you use jokes, that doesn't necessarily mean you're overtly and explicitly physically harming someone for for that matter.

But there is a continuum there with the language can lead to those sorts of things.

So, you know, in my mind, I think I have a lot of compassion for that understanding on the other hand, to not everyone has to or can have compassion for these folks, right?

It's hard.

I think especially when I talked to some women in my life for other people who have been harmed by man regardless of their gender.

If you've never received an apology in your life or from somebody who's harmed, you from man in your life that harmed you if you've never seen someone be held accountable for these sorts of issues.

I think it's really hard to have that kind of compassion for them.

So I think number one to do this sort of work, you need to really do a deeper dive into your own biases.

What Rahm, as coming into this sort of work with, I had to really understand my relationship to men because I think it's bell Hooks who sort of talks about.

We often talk about how women are deeply afraid in condition to be afraid of men.

Experience violence for men, which is absolutely true.

But we don't as much talk about how men also experience a lot of violence for men in are conditioned to be afraid of other men.

I think of the example.

Just wait until your father gets home, right?

Like when when men here that when boys here that it's signaling something about your relationship, 2 men.

And so I think, you know, doing a deeper dive in your own psychology, your own biases and trying to find that compassion is absolutely a precursor for this sort of work, but not everyone can do that or should be doing that.

> > I'm assuming that you're doing it this way.

The way that you're doing your work because there is a continuum of violence that's continuing.

So you are having to work in a way that's not traditional sort of restored of justice.

Can you tell us a little bit more about your efforts?

> > Yeah, so you know, I work a lot of what we might call like.

Restorative practices are alternative resolutions meeting like I might work with people who have either been accused of harm have actually cause harm already or are just trying to explore the impact that they've had in a relationship may be a negative impact and they've had on people in their lives.

You know, whether that be sexual violence, relationship, violence stalking, and those sorts of things.

The efforts to do it this way is to try to understand that accountability can happen in a lot of different ways.

And most of the time we do a really great job of is holding people accountable and rather punitive.

Our cars are always or like cancel culture kind of stuff.

And what actually happens when we're talking about, like, for example, in some communities and the man is fear in particular is when people are sort you know, they mess up you know, they may be harmed people to in their lives and they need to be held accountable for that.

We often reject them from society and kind of push them somewhere else.

And then they find themselves into these communities who say we accept we, we love you.

We care about you when they don't really.

But it gives them sort of this idea that like, hey, I'm going to go to this community and fine refuge.

I'm going to be supported.

I'm going to be loved.

And so if you're able to sort of show them that accountability can kind of happened where, hey, this is tough work to hold yourself accountable and have a community hold you accountable.

But we take that responsibility on a community level to help heal and to like you know, really address these sorts of issues, then it kind of shows them that like, hey, I can be accepted back into society.

And I and I can just work really hard at that.

> > Using the N-word accountable, triggered this Pavlovian response.

And to me in to what we talked about in a pre interview conversation, you had the occasion to talk to white supremacists and use the word accountable with that person.

It was fascinating.

Tell us how how that kind of played out.

> > Sure.

When you're doing this sort of work, an amendment in men and masculinity as you sort you don't always know if you're like working like I'm the kind of work that I'm sort of doing or your find yourselves into some, you know, sort of like men's rights, white supremacy sort of space.

And so I found myself in a zoom room long story.

But I families over zoom room with a man who was a self-described, you know, men's rights activist known white supremacists, you and also has a history of domestic and sexual violence accusations and that sort of thing.

And it kind of has a little bit.

We'll talk about the work that I was doing.

And I said, you know, I hope there try to hold people accountable.

And I just talked about late the word accountability and he honorably scoffed at me and rolled his eyes.

And I think that's a moment where I as a clinician and, you know, as a person who does this sort of work, I'm just curious about that response.

So instead of sort of arguing with him about that.

I sort of just said, I'm curious about that.

You you know what your response to that any kind of describing held accountable.

He says, you know, when you do something wrong, people beat you when you're down a kick on you, they spit on you.

They reject you.

And and who wants to live that sort of life.

And I thought that was really illuminating about his experience of what accountability really looks like.

And all I really said to him was, you know, honestly, that sounds really painful and I'm really sorry to hear that.

And I'm sorry that no one's ever in your life been able to hold you accountable and a loving and affirming way and honestly had no idea how to respond to that because it might have been like the first time anyone's ever kind of taken that and go with him and he sort of like pause for a while.

He looked at me for a minute.

And then you just said, you know what, your work sounds interesting.

And that was kind of the end of that sort of a, you know, interaction.

I think it gives you a real eliminated idea into the psychology of how people think about accountability work and what it means to just say you're sorry or take responsibility.

And I think we see that in a lot of societal things right now.

When people kind of look at saying Apollo and I apologize, I'm sorry and taking accountability as weakness when it's really > > What events have we seen not.

that could be tied back to extremist ideas are the sort of language we've been talking about today that proliferate online.

> > I mean, I think in general, you can kind of think of any like mass violence that we sort of see.

I mean, there's a lot of studies looking at mask, weapons and gun violence.

For example, you know, in in history, I think of people like Elliot Rodger in California in his manifesto sort of talked about a day of retribution for women who rejected him and some context.

Omar Mateen.

It was the Orlando nightclub you know, shooter who had a history of violence and domestic violence against his acts.

Stephen Paddock, the Las Vegas shooter.

I mean, it goes on and on.

The list is on and on.

When you look at some studies, they kind of show many of these men are either targeting who who are engaging in mass shooting in mass violence are targeting may be specific women.

Their lives usually exes or current partners that they have romantic partners or it might be women in their lives who have maybe rejected them or women in general because they represent sort of a rejection of, you know, there is sort of themselves and inability be, you know, have sexual relationships or romantic relationships with others.

And so consistently you see across lake, it is some studies that supporters summit even half even mass shootings have some sort of and documented history of domestic sexual violence, you know, being an incel communities being on online forums that are sort of building community around the hatred of women saying, hey, all of your issues that you have are actually about women and not anything else there about the hatred of women and to regain a sort of sense of power or to even have power in the first place is about control of women and people who are less than and so let's give you the language to describe these people.

And then let's give you access to even weapons and ideology that tells you to go out and reclaim control at the expense of these people.

> > Let's bring color to this guy.

Conversation Zach from Meriden Dial dated 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, to speak with us this morning.

Go ahead.

Zach.

> > Thanks for taking my call and curious if you might be able to be on and the system's related intervention that might become more root causes of this loneliness.

not going to be a challenges around the NFL red and black community > > and I'll leave it there.

Thank you, Zach.

One thing at.

Thank you so much for calling Zach One thing I found interesting that you are talking about when we talk to it in a pre interview conversation that might be able to manage the answers.

That question.

> > You actually worked with the Biden administration.

I think it was a couple years ago.

> > ways that we could sort of address issues of online harassment and there were certain groups and stakeholders that were sort of the subjects of this.

Obviously, women and survivors of these attacks were part of it, but also > > where the men and potential interventions part of that as well.

> > Yeah, absolutely.

So this was on the White House Biden administration, White House task force to address online harassment and abuse.

So that's kind of bringing together a lot of people from different mediums who can address just the psychology of how people how basically things like violence is perpetrated in real life can kind of stem from like online harassment abuse and also how people are also abused and harassed online in particular.

What to do about it.

A lot of the interventions that we sort of talk about our, you know, can we really find spaces where we really create community for young men and boys?

Even off line?

So if we're going to be online, you know, can we have online bystander intervention, trainings, where we sort of talked to people about what it means to see and witness harassment online may be in gaming forums, for example, and address harm in real time.

When you start to really like you sort of active bystander intervention, strategies of interrupting harassment online.

It's sort of an creates sort of normalcy around that where people understand that this is a space where that kind of thing is not going to be tolerated.

The real thing, though, is we can say all day that we need to get people off line.

But what are they going online to?

So to kind of get to the caller's question about this, there's a lot of different organizations usually around like colleges and universities, but a lot of nonprofits to that sort of have like, you know, violence prevention, masculinity based groups that are sort of bringing men together to do violence, prevention, work a big part of that is just having them do the work of violence prevention by saying going out there and doing education about it.

It's about learning about yourself.

It's about learning about how the systems the rigid are, what I call restrictive masculinity.

This idea that you have to be one type of man at all times.

You have to always be the protector.

Always be the provider.

always be strong, always be resilient in if you are not any of those things all the time, then you're less than let's learn about that.

Let's learn about how the systems in online spaces are trying to stoke in security and u N and learning about that.

Learn about your history.

Learn about your story.

Learn about emotional intelligence and those sorts of things.

And and how to respond to your emotions instead of letting them spiral out of control and harm people around you.

So there's absolutely groups and organizations out there that are doing this sort of work.

I work like organizations like the our futures without violence.

You know, I think there's some particular Movember is another one.

A call to men.

You know, there's a lot of different organizations that help set up groups, you know, a dedicated to looking and examining this.

And so we should be looking more into that sort of education site site only have about a minute left, not even so.

I want to give you this last one.

While we do when we don't call a misogynistic and dehumanizing language online, let's focus on the women here.

> > And ultimately don't work to eradicate the problem was it mean for women of other marginalized groups like women of color, undocumented women, LGBTQ+ pop populations.

Give us about 30 seconds on this.

> > And what it now.

And I mean, when we sort of are like deeply embedded in this psychology online, it comes at the expense of of women of people who have more marginalized in different ways and eyes and it contributes to violence against them.

We know how much violence, you know, mass violence impacts women And and so in particular, I think like what this really does is causes a disconnect in relationships between men and women in particular and man in these organizations, man at a time when we're saying we want more relationships are following people who don't know how to establish relationships with other people and it leaves us lonely and isolated doctoring this sort of thing.

Where brings us back together?

And we need to do more of > > Thank you for closing up there.

I appreciate it.

Doctor Site Hill Counseling, psychologist, an independent consultant.

Thank you so much for your work.

Today show was produced by the Vienna Corderro and tally Ricketson edited by Patrick Scale.

Thank you so much, Dylan race and the rest of the team.

This is the Wheelhouse on Frankie Graziano.

Thank you for listening.

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